Updated IDL wad: 201X

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Dastan
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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#21

Post by Dastan » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:40 am

It'd be cool to add the following maps:
-Old map 25 from IDL2012 (Frank's map)
-VeloCTF31
-RageCTF09
-Core29

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#22

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:07 am

Franks map? Sorry but that map is outclassed by other maps that already play in that style: 05 or 09 namely. Even Rage09 is far superior to it. However, it would be nice to have some variation to new additions rather than bring in more maps that play in the style of 20.

Velo31: I recall how when the idl was alive we tried fielding a testwad for new maps and this one was in it. Apparently it was disliked by the big bunch we had back then. Has everyone had a change of heart since then or have the people who hated it moved on?

Core29: structurally it's not that impressive, a bit flat over all. However,if it doesn't have the shitty pistol spawn fragging that plagues idl29 or if it doesn't play like your typical run and frag map31, I would consider it if more players chimed in regarding it.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#23

Post by Decay » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:25 am

Dastan wrote:It'd be cool to add the following maps:
-Old map 25 from IDL2012 (Frank's map)
-VeloCTF31
-RageCTF09
-Core29
Dirtnap, seriously? The wad has enough ssg grindfests. I also have in my possession an edited veloctf31 (as per suggestions alexmax made to me years ago) and some slight edits to rage09 (such as replacing the "troll-lifts" with steep stairs/ladder instead). Might be worth considering.

I have heard some rumbling about removing map23: rage06, crypts of the damned. As the map author, I kind of agree with the sentiment. A lot of people can't play it, it's pretty grindy, and very predictable in its escape routes (either the gates or jump across to the lift). If I could say "switch my map out with another one of my maps" I would offer either:
RageCTF 01: Slave Machinery
RageCTF 10: Last Remains

Other offerings I would put up for the wad in general would be
Rage13: Castle Crush
32in24 -16 map11: Super Canoe or some name like that
-16 map17: Creepy Cube Conspiracy
-16 map20: Get on the Floor Everybody walk the Bloodivore
-16 map22: Captive's Crypts (probably only good for 4s though)
-16 map25: Bad Moon

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#24

Post by Catastrophe » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:05 am

I have heard some rumbling about removing map23: rage06, crypts of the damned. As the map author, I kind of agree with the sentiment. A lot of people can't play it, it's pretty grindy, and very predictable in its escape routes (either the gates or jump across to the lift). If I could say "switch my map out with another one of my maps" I would offer either:
RageCTF 01: Slave Machinery
RageCTF 10: Last Remains
I agree with this sentiment.
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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#25

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:20 am

It depends on the edits made to Velo31in addition to others wanting it in whether to grabs a slot. I really don't know about replacing the lifts with ladders in Rage09. It removes the sound cue which makes it easier to get in if people aren't looking. So it might help with its grindfest?

Rage01 is a good map but I'd say it falls victim to the notion of being an SSG fest. It is better than 23 though. As for Rage10, I have no idea how that would play out in a private setting.

Rage13: It's better than idl10, has an interesting pool feature and it's not hard to learn. But I don't know if anyone would give it a chance at all.

32in24 map11: Seems interesting, but I'm not sure about the window shutter gimmick.
map17: Honestly looks like a pub map and the rjump path into the base doesn't seem worth it.
map20: Looks interesting because while the defense is easy, the SS and the path ways might make running on this slightly easy as well.
map22: Pub map
map25: Diet idl13? Seems way to easy to run from one flag to the other and the abundance of sg spawns might screw defenders over. BUT, having a more offense oriented map isn't a bad thing. I have no clue how this plays, perhaps someone can chime in on it.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#26

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:01 pm

Shotgun Fix + minor stuff: https://allfearthesentinel.net/zandronu ... _b-fix.pk3

There is also no need to run the map15 patch anymore either.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#27

Post by Combinebobnt » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:53 pm

did zdoom change the name of the shotgun sound in sndinfo. progress

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#28

Post by Zakken » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:20 am

Maps that absolutely need to go:

MAP10: Confrontation - IDLCONT11-21
One thing that really doesn't bode well with Doom is vertical-style mapping, since it's a 2.5D game after all, and vertical describes the entire mid in this map. Mid has very poor visibility (which reduces their effectiveness) and generally the best way to play D is to camp the flag room because of the different pathways and the inability to tell where the enemy runner is. Boring.

MAP14: Generic Gray - THIRTY4-09
The only reason this map is still around is because top players haven't abused the teleport enough. Either modify the teleports so that they're instant or get rid of the whole thing.

MAP23: Crypts of the Damned - RAGECTF06
I don't think this map is as bad as others make it sound, but it's still inconsistent and wonky. Setting up defence isn't hard, but most spawns will screw you over if you die as soon as the enemy gets your flag. Also, lift shenanigans.


Other maps that should be removed eventually:

MAP02: Reign of Steel - RAGECTF17
I haven't seen this map get picked at all over the past month of priv. It looks nice, but it has terrible flow. Maybe it'd be a good map if this was a different arena shooter.

MAP13: A's... Base of Boppin' - THIRTY4-13
As "intellectual" as this map is, it really just encourages stalling most of the time, even in a 4v4 setting. It's a bore to play and to watch.

MAP15: The Hex Core - CORECTF20
Oh boy, another map that says "fuck you" to good defence play and puts all hopes of success on the mid player alone. If the enemy kills you as they take the flag and you don't get the lone spawn that's next to the flag, your only options are to search one of two other pathways (and take a ~50% risk of getting juked) or camp the mid (only safe option, in my opinion). The meta boils down to which team has the better mid to clear it at the right time for the flag runner to come out of one of many safe areas.

MAP25: Infection - RAGECTF21
A single large and wide corridor that comprises almost the entire map makes for a tedious grindfest. Also, more vertical bullshit at mid.

As for new map recommendations, I'd go with Toxic Refineries II (CORE29), Towering Gardens (CORE24), Mercurial (RAGECTF09) and Titania Base (CORE28). I haven't tested any of the 32in24-16 maps, but the one that looked most interesting to me, out of the recommended maps in the previous posts, was MAP22. It may be a little simplistic, but still provides solid positioning for defence, mid and offence, and gives you enough visibility of key areas in the map without sacrificing cover.
Dastan wrote:-Old map 25 from IDL2012 (Frank's map)
Are you kidding? That map is horrendous and unpolished. We have enough brainless maps as is.
Decay wrote:RageCTF 01: Slave Machinery
This is a good map. It could work as one of the "offence-heavy" maps that still plays fair to defence.
Decay wrote:RageCTF 10: Last Remains
It has a weird "pub" layout to it and I doubt it would keep the interest of priv players for long.
Decay wrote:Rage13: Castle Crush
The map has bad visibility all around (mid becomes a hide-and-seek minigame) which, coupled with the abundance and easy accessibility to armours, makes for a frustrating experience trying to kill enemies, and not a map I'd want to invest learning and getting good at.
Dastan wrote:-VeloCTF31
In spite of being another instance of Vertical Bullshit (TM), it still plays relatively decent gameplay-wise. Although, I don't see it being a solid replacement to any of the currently existing maps.
Last edited by Zakken on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#29

Post by Decay » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:56 am

Guess you should've looked in the fix wad Rustking posted before you posted, because Crypts has been replaced and so has pumpkins with Core 29

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#30

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:59 am

10, 14, 15, and 23 were already on my to remove list.

I was considering swapping 02 with veloct31.

13 is a classic, but it is boring when 1 team just destroys the other one.

25 is no more a grindfest than 31 or 20 or even RAGE10. There's nothing wrong with a mild case of vertical play especially when mlook is available.

CORE29 looks more well designed than alex's flat map or the other one. D:

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#31

Post by Razgriz » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:11 am

Yea let me complain about vertical play but majority of the player base will pick judas23 for a serious duel :D
I have heard some rumbling about removing map23: rage06, crypts of the damned. As the map author, I kind of agree with the sentiment. A lot of people can't play it, it's pretty grindy, and very predictable in its escape routes (either the gates or jump across to the lift).
You would think for a predictable map it should be easy to play right? I guess that explains why lots of people couldn't play it properly, oops.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#32

Post by Decay » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:17 am

Razgriz wrote: You would think for a predictable map it should be easy to play right? I guess that explains why lots of people couldn't play it properly, oops.
Hmm well, I'm sorry that some people have hit their mental apex and then proceeded to decline? Flag runners were running out 1 of 2 ways; the gates or the lift/bridge. It's predictable to the point of people sitting outside the gates camping at all times. But what I meant more was that the scores I saw were almost always blow-outs, with the raid-huffers flailing their ssgs, the concrete dust snorters waving their cgs all over the place, soulspheres left untouched, offensive players attempting to barge through -the entire fucking base- when anybody who hadn't hit their apex yet knew the bridge was the only real viable way in.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#33

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:33 am

The map has bad visibility all around (mid becomes a hide-and-seek minigame)
I agree, I never saw what was so great about frank's unfinished map. You can literally just sit in 1 spot and see everything. Perhaps that's the meta some people enjoy, but there are far better designed maps out there.
It has a weird "pub" layout to it and I doubt it would keep the interest of priv players for long.
I agree a bit. Its layout is not something most players can wrap their head around and it is a bit awkward. I don't see people ever giving it a fair chance.
The map has bad visibility all around (mid becomes a hide-and-seek minigame) which, coupled with the abundance and easy accessibility to armours, makes for a frustrating experience trying to kill enemies, and not a map I'd want to invest learning and getting good at.
It is an offense oriented map and I believe you underestimate the visibility there is in the map. From the GA gate you can see everything a la map01. Positioning in mid cuts down on any hide and seek and you can easily see someone going the main route or pool route. Armors are there in order to use them either offensively or to give D a buff along with the health in the base. Regardless, don't see anyone ever giving it a chance anyway.

Most of the issues of a lot of the maps are nullified when matches are played in 3v3. 4v4 tosses out a lot of the strategy that has been associated with many of the maps.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#34

Post by Zakken » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:46 am

I edited my previous post with some more thoughts on other maps.
Decay wrote:Guess you should've looked in the fix wad Rustking posted before you posted, because Crypts has been replaced and so has pumpkins with Core 29
That a fact? Thought the changes were just some "minor stuff", smh. My bad. It is a nice update though, and I hope that FC+ and associates put it up asap.
Ru5tK1ng wrote:25 is no more a grindfest than 31 or 20 or even RAGE10.
That's debatable, but my point is that we already have maps that do 25's job and they do it better already. Nobody will miss it if it were replaced with one of these superior maps that are being suggested in this thread.
Ru5tK1ng wrote:CORE29 looks more well designed than alex's flat map or the other one. D:
Maybe? But Alex's "flat map" is surprisingly a lot of fun, and accommodates for a variety of playstyles. It was played in the WDL last season and feedback was generally positive. It's actually the one Core map I'd like to see make it in the most.

As for Titania Base, the design is quite alright, but I can see why some aspects of it wouldn't be attractive at first glance, but it wouldn't hurt to give it a shot either.
Razgriz wrote:Yea let me complain about vertical play but majority of the player base will pick judas23 for a serious duel :D
Hah. Name other predominately vertical duel maps that found nearly as much success as Judas? My point is that it's not easy to make a map of that kind that works, because Doom wasn't designed to accommodate for overly-vertical gameplay. That's even more important in competitive-driven content, because the SSG's pellets get distorted as the height difference increases, just to name one example.

On the flip side, many good Doom maps are quite flat, in fact, that I don't understand why "flat" counts as valid criticism in the way that's being thrown around. Utilising the IDL wad as an example: MAP01 is flat; MAP17 is flat; MAP31 only has two distinguishable floor levels and MAP32 is kind of on the flat side too.
Ru5tK1ng wrote:I agree, I never saw what was so great about frank's unfinished map. You can literally just sit in 1 spot and see everything. Perhaps that's the meta some people enjoy, but there are far better designed maps out there.
This is more of a personal preference, but I think a CTF map is at its most "balanced" when mid provides good visibility, but still gives mid players enough cover to protect themselves from D players potentially sniping them out. MAP06 is an excellent example of this.
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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#35

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:14 am

That a fact? Thought the changes were just some "minor stuff", smh. My bad. It is a nice update though, and I hope that FC+ and associates put it up asap.
It was supposed to be a surprise, but fatso opened his mouth.
That's debatable, but my point is that we already have maps that do 25's job and they do it better already. Nobody will miss it if it were replaced with one of these superior maps that are being suggested in this thread.
As stated above, it's most likely something that will be phased out eventually. I tend to focus on the more dire maps that need to be removed. Having 25 stick around couldn't hurt that much.
On the flip side, many good Doom maps are quite flat, in fact, that I don't understand why "flat" counts as valid criticism in the way that's being thrown around. Utilising the IDL wad as an example: MAP01 is flat; MAP17 is flat; MAP31 only has two distinguishable floor levels and MAP32 is kind of on the flat side too.
I wouldn't call those good maps more than easy to learn maps. Map01 is basically the beginners map to learning CTF which is fine. But people liked it because it was easy to learn and play and today people consider it a grindfest and are pretty much tired of it, unless you're Tai D:.

MAP31 is the shoot.wad of ctf that's why it's well liked because it's good warmup map. 32 is, eh, a step up from 31 but really it's not that much better and perhaps there was a reason why it got removed out of corectf.

MAP17 is good in 3v3 and the pit jumps add a dimension that none of the aforementioned maps have. Flat doesn't necessarily equate to good maps either (see idlcontest maps) however, it does equate to easier to learn and to doomers, easier is better. Of course, there's absolutely no incentive to even spend time on more difficult things either.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#36

Post by Razgriz » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:03 am

Zakken wrote: Hah. Name other predominately vertical duel maps that found nearly as much success as Judas? My point is that it's not easy to make a map of that kind that works, because Doom wasn't designed to accommodate for overly-vertical gameplay. That's even more important in competitive-driven content, because the SSG's pellets get distorted as the height difference increases, just to name one example.

On the flip side, many good Doom maps are quite flat, in fact, that I don't understand why "flat" counts as valid criticism in the way that's being thrown around. Utilising the IDL wad as an example: MAP01 is flat; MAP17 is flat; MAP31 only has two distinguishable floor levels and MAP32 is kind of on the flat side too.
King1, Dweller, Greenwar20 to an extent, there are other maps that don't have such a high vertical height but still are played fairly consistently. Judas is well liked because sitting by the bottom SSG lets you see all the spawns except 2, requires no brain power when it comes to finding out where your opponent spawned, it's a lazy habit many doomers have taken on and its shown by the most picked CTF maps. The more you see = easier to play because less guess work when finding out what a runner may try to do or anyone else on the other team. Vertical height and cover are a modern CTF players worst nightmares, esp if they can't sit in one spot and shoot everything like a turret.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#37

Post by Catastrophe » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:19 am

Razgriz wrote:
Zakken wrote: Hah. Name other predominately vertical duel maps that found nearly as much success as Judas? My point is that it's not easy to make a map of that kind that works, because Doom wasn't designed to accommodate for overly-vertical gameplay. That's even more important in competitive-driven content, because the SSG's pellets get distorted as the height difference increases, just to name one example.

On the flip side, many good Doom maps are quite flat, in fact, that I don't understand why "flat" counts as valid criticism in the way that's being thrown around. Utilising the IDL wad as an example: MAP01 is flat; MAP17 is flat; MAP31 only has two distinguishable floor levels and MAP32 is kind of on the flat side too.
King1, Dweller, Greenwar20 to an extent, there are other maps that don't have such a high vertical height but still are played fairly consistently. Judas is well liked because sitting by the bottom SSG lets you see all the spawns except 2, requires no brain power when it comes to finding out where your opponent spawned, it's a lazy habit many doomers have taken on and its shown by the most picked CTF maps. The more you see = easier to play because less guess work when finding out what a runner may try to do or anyone else on the other team. Vertical height and cover are a modern CTF players worst nightmares, esp if they can't sit in one spot and shoot everything like a turret.
Comparing duel to CTF isn't fair since you're allowed freelook and jump on top of it being a team game instead of a 1 v 1. Totally different ballgame.
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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#38

Post by Samurai » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:28 am

Big fan of map23 personally. It offers something different to most of the other maps, and encourages teamwork and communication, rather than mindless fragging. If anything I'd rather play more maps like this than the usual map suspects in priv.

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#39

Post by Galactus » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:16 pm

What's wrong with vertical height? Just aim up lmao
Regardless I checked out the wad and found out the textures are glitched on map 17

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Re: Updated IDL wad: 201X

#40

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:25 pm

Regardless I checked out the wad and found out the textures are glitched on map 17
Fuck...just fixed it for next version. Anyone seen any other issues?
Comparing duel to CTF isn't fair since you're allowed freelook and jump on top of it being a team game instead of a 1 v 1. Totally different ballgame.
That's true, and the fact you can jump and freelook nearly makes mild cases of vertical play a non-issue.
Galactus wrote:What's wrong with vertical height? Just aim up lmao
Agreed. For players that have good to exceptional aim, up/down aim should not be a challenge at all.

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