State of the Union address (what really went wrong with competition)

[Shane]

My fellow Zandronians, I write this letter formally to lay rumours and misconceptions to rest. With all the buzz floating about in these recent days, I see fit to really shed some light on whats actually happening rather than others simply pointing and placing blame on one another when it is not needed and or excessive. However I myself will be put in the same place as I tackle through each subject in the following thread, just bare with me and hopefully we can reflect better on ourselves and perhaps establish a better foothold to which we can begin groundwork on making this community seem less bleak and hopeless.

For our first topic I'd like to discuss the recent issue of clans:

First and foremost, these almost non-existent clans that continuously crop up from nowhere with separate motives and take away players whom wish to play competitively as well as fall within the goals of these other clans. Only to be blind sided as this new clan of theirs was created spontaneously for a short time and has completely become inactive as it fails to update frequently with players and or scrims.

This needs to stop, clans and clan leaders need to have a steady and at least somewhat active playerbase if it is to ever be taken seriously in it's development and establishment as a serious clan. Without forums, an irc channel or the blatant disregard for attempting to search for new players, this has really alienated recent clans to any new players wanting a piece of the action they so desire. An active leader and strong leadership system is what most clans today are lacking, and not adding linearity to these clans that are not competitive just adds salt to the wound when you limit yourself to something that has no need for clans.

I of course am talking about these ZDW, zombie horde, gvh and whatever mod specific clans that are being created around this time with a harmless goal of enjoying a fun mod with friends. Thats fine I have no issue with that, but at the same time I look at these clans as they are pointless because lets be honest, there is nothing you can do inside these clans that you can't do outside of them as well, scrims on mods aren't even very useful seeing as how they were created with new rules and ideals in mind. It's a mod and there to have a few fun games on, not to spark completely alienated competition which there is already too much of today.

While on the subject of clans let's talk about clan leaders

I've only been in this Skulltag/Zandronum community for at least a short 2 years and never have I seen such a decline in clan leader(s) activity, it's really shameful as a matter of fact. The majority of clans today have at the most 2 to 3 players active every week while the leader(s) sits around and mopes about or is into other things not doom related without expending effort into the clan that they themselves promised to help upkeep. Sure I understand, real life issues come into play, natural interest in doom can become smaller and smaller but thats no excuse to drag around your current list of clan members simply because you yourself do not wish to play. Take the necessary steps and enlist a co-leader or 2, someone who can take charge while the leader is away and keep the clan content and satisfied with themselves, if this is of course difficult for some then you should consider disbanding the clan as there is no point in keeping it up and waiting for it to dwindle out of existence. This goes double for the clan player list as well, if the leader is showing no interest whatsoever to the clan and it's goals, then more than likely it's time for a change of scenery.

A clan leader that does nothing but sits in their channel and complains about the 'good old days' is a strong sign of a weak leader as they have no faith in themselves or for their own clan. It's pitiful and entirely dumbfounding to be kited around by someone whom clearly has no place to be in this community anymore and would rather stick to downing the current generation of doomers.

Oh yes, time to discuss current doomers to the old, be prepared as I am not going to hold back on how I feel about this

Guess what, players come and go, good ones and bad ones as well as unforgettable ones but thats just life. If you're the kind of person who finds this as an excuse to not play doom because it doesn't have the playerbase it once had, get over your fucking self, you're weak and currently a waste of bandwidth if you seriously want to stick around on IRC just for the kicks.

Let me tell you guys something, the days of [DX], Chewy, Bazooka and even Jkist are gone. But that was so long ago, and you want to know what happened after all of them relocated? A brand new set of players stepped forth to take their roles and continue to strive to be better than their predecessors and counterparts, thats real fucking dedication. Sure these players do still remanence about those days but they are also proud of where they have gone and become today. It's called hope, hope that others will be immortalized just as great players before have been through hard work and knowledge that they gain from these relics. Instead of idolizing the players that used to frequent doom, what really should be done is trying to surpass them in every way and becoming the next generation of professional players that the following players to come will remember and say "yeah they were a really good player, but I bet I could do just as well".

It's this kind of attitude that makes me sick. How about instead of following other players around and kissing the ground they walk on, you instead challenge their position of power and spark a rivalry and work towards the goal of being better than them? The best method of becoming a better player is to set the standard for yourself, working towards that skill level, and then branching out once you have achieved what you set out to do. There is no such thing as an unbeatable player, everyone has lost a game, no one player is entirely overpowered because everyone has a weakness and it's just a matter of exploiting it to the best of one's abilities.

How do we help strengthen our playerbase then?
I feel like you might ask

Well as many players before have stated, give these new bloods a chance, if you feel they might be a hacker/aliaser then ask an admin to do a background check for you. No one will call you stupid for having suspicions as we all know it is rather difficult to believe someone new coming in and handing everyone's ass over to them on a silver platter. Guess what, we live in a whole new version of skulltag called zandronum, and as far as I can tell we now have a plethora of players just sitting around doing nothing infact IDE tells me that zandronum keeps a consistent proximity of at least 130 players a day! wow! Granted most of these players are infact mm8bdm players, they are players nonetheless that have expressed interest into online and (even perhaps) online doom competition.

And remember, even the clan that most players revere today called Renegades began somewhere as well, no clan can just start out and become the most top rated clan in doom competition. However through time and dedication, they can and more than likely will prove to be a tough coming up contender.

Oh yeah here's also a good point, stop fucking aliasing. How is it that most players on Zandronum have this urge to change their nicknames every week? If players really want to get noticed then they should stop dicking around with the nicknames and pick one so that others can better identify a reoccurring player. It's okay to change once every couple of months if one doesn't feel comfortable with their name, but as long as they also identify using their more recognizable name then it's not a problem at all.

On a final note regarding competition; c'mon guys, get on IRC, it's really not that hard to just start IDE up and click the little skull icon. Seriously it's not rocket science, it's the best way to get noticed as more players will be able to reach and speak to players.

Private ctf is almost dead and it's all thanks to the feud that happened!! Oh no!!

No it's not, it's mainly due to League of Legends sucking lives and spitting corpses. If there is an actual issue with priv ctf and players are only picking their friends over others who have not played then theres a word for behaviour like that, it's called being childish. I enjoy priv ctf regardless of what idiot decides to grace us with their presence, because I never let them get to me the way others do as I let my skill do most of the talking.

Private ctf is also getting invaded by these new players who don't know what they're doing

Good, let the password be leaked a few times, sure priv might be held up every so often having to teach players how to play priv on the spot but at least theres now new players that can come and go whenever priv gets started up. As long as it's not an aliaser or hacker, I'm fine with the 5 minute wait time to discuss how to play private ctf with these new players, as long as they're having fun then I'm having fun.

Private ctf gets so bloated, the players that stay are wasting their time and not helping out by starting another priv

Let me bust out my psychology book as to explain why there isn't an abundance of 2 private ctf servers being taken up: When a less than extraordinaire player is waiting to be picked, theres a strong feeling of accomplishment when a more stronger player picks them to play for their team. Players have a secret desire to be better than their peers and getting picked for a team over other stronger choices gives them a reassuring feeling that they are improving and being noticed by players that would otherwise skim over their name to pick someone more known for their skill. Splitting priv at this point would just take all the rejects to another server where they can play with other rejected players, this isn't how I feel but this is how other players would ultimately feel when going to another server.


It's really a no brainer when it comes down to it. It's not a question of who can aim better or who can shoot first, it's more of a question on how well a player can outsmart and out strategize an opposing player.

So to sum this all up, we don't need competition; competition needs you

[Catastrophe]

it's mainly due to League of Legends sucking lives and spitting corpses.

+1

[one_Two]

I've said it before, this port would be so much better if there wasn't such a high concentration of good players in a few clans. I think some people have an assumption that lesser skilled players aren't as active or willing to play so they aren't worth letting in your top tier clan or joining their clan? R is perhaps a little different because of joint interests outside of doom but I'll say, imagine if one of their "pro" players joined one of the lesser clans, that would make the scene much better. Imo I think N is a bit of an anomaly, I play because I want to and I love competetive doom, we're probably, of the active clans, the least skilled, we often lose and I rarely attract (nor expect to attract) top tier players, I can't imagine many other players/ low-level clans would put up with this. So when you talk about how revered R has become I just think it's killing the scene, same with pro really - nothing against anyone in the clans but what is that all about? I'd love to hear from some players in those clans why you would choose not to play for lesser clans?

[Ivan]

it's mainly due to League of Legends sucking lives and spitting corpses.

+1

Yes, but it's good. Doom has to be more addicting then. Do something about it.

[Shane]

it's mainly due to League of Legends sucking lives and spitting corpses.

+1

Yes, but it's good. Doom has to be more addicting then. Do something about it.

Ironically enough my brother was in the making of a doom port that ripped LoL's gameplay mechanics... Never finished though.

[Ivan]

it's mainly due to League of Legends sucking lives and spitting corpses.

+1

Yes, but it's good. Doom has to be more addicting then. Do something about it.

Ironically enough my brother was in the making of a doom port that ripped LoL's gameplay mechanics... Never finished though.

I think that's a bit of an overreaction aha, but that's the idea basically. Maybe if there were actual stat saves for CTF, DM etc. then it'd be a bit more appealing.

[mr fiat]

sounding like a broken record, also i'm smelling some spite from what happened yesterday.

[Danzoa]

How about we just get more competitive events?
Instead of FNF only, make some more, that attracts people into servers like Deathmatch saturday, or Christmass Holiday events, through the entire weeks of holidays people get, or in summer, have a new event almost everyday, Survival, Deathmatch, Duel, CTF whatever, events like that keep a game alive, tournaments also do, have more of them, bring idea's to the competitive scene, instead of every now and then making a topic about how it's dying, just do something about it.

[Shane]

What happened yesterday?

Also Ivan even more ironically, Rosking has shared the same idea and interest in just that. Details on it will show up later on hopefully if the blueprints are made soon.

---

How about we just get more competitive events?
Instead of FNF only, make some more, that attracts people into servers like Deathmatch saturday, or Christmass Holiday events, through the entire weeks of holidays people get, or in summer, have a new event almost everyday, Survival, Deathmatch, Duel, CTF whatever, events like that keep a game alive, tournaments also do, have more of them, bring idea's to the competitive scene, instead of every now and then making a topic about how it's dying, just do something about it.

Yeah thats what this thread is for, lots of players just write off events like "oh ctf leagues never last on Zandro" well I guess so with that kind of attitude. It's not the amount of competition we need, just the faith in it.

I've said it before, this port would be so much better if there wasn't such a high concentration of good players in a few clans. I think some people have an assumption that lesser skilled players aren't as active or willing to play so they aren't worth letting in your top tier clan or joining their clan? R is perhaps a little different because of joint interests outside of doom but I'll say, imagine if one of their "pro" players joined one of the lesser clans, that would make the scene much better. Imo I think N is a bit of an anomaly, I play because I want to and I love competetive doom, we're probably, of the active clans, the least skilled, we often lose and I rarely attract (nor expect to attract) top tier players, I can't imagine many other players/ low-level clans would put up with this. So when you talk about how revered R has become I just think it's killing the scene, same with pro really - nothing against anyone in the clans but what is that all about? I'd love to hear from some players in those clans why you would choose not to play for lesser clans?

Yeah although you've slightly missed my point, I'm trying to say rather than accept defeat and this belief that players can't be as good as these top contending clans. Work a little more in their own goals than just casually playing and thinking thats all they can do.

[one_Two]

Yeah although you've slightly missed my point, I'm trying to say rather than accept defeat and this belief that players can't be as good as these top contending clans. Work a little more in their own goals than just casually playing and thinking thats all they can do.

I know it didn't reflect your point, but that's where the problem lies, and people know it.

[Luke]

How about we just get more competitive events?

Random CTF Tournament:
-Anyone can subscribe.
-Teams will be extracted randomly.
-Ladder, random as well.
-Winning team gets a fancy "winner of the xyz event" banner/title/forum name colour/forum profile badge or whatnot.

Or donations for a prize pool as Aenima suggested. (one dollar each from 50 users and you have a prize pool of 50$/10$ each, which is not much but tells you "come on! play and don't be shy it's for the hell of it!")
Don't come out with "I don't want to give money/I don't have any" nobody cares, who wants and can would give who wouldn't hadn't anyone asking him/her to do so.

[Combinebobnt]

Ok have fun running it then

[Strych6]

I still think a doom currency (limited reputation pts) would add quite a dynamic of incentive. You might need someone with accounting skills or elaborate coding experience to sort out the system well. Trick is finding a way to expend the currency. "I'll give you 20 of my credits if you add this item to my mod." Make a bunch but don't hand it out so much or it loses the value.

Provides incentive:
to work on projects, allowing mod community to flourish
for enhanced forum posting
for long-term goals
to help other players
for legal betting pools
to learn the nature of economics
for planned events
on community contribution



sadly someone(s) would have to oversee conflict in trade and keep an eye out for fowl play. There's a number of drawbacks to it but it cant be impossible

[Catastrophe]

I still think a doom currency (limited reputation pts) would add quite a dynamic of incentive. You might need someone with accounting skills or elaborate coding experience to sort out the system well. Trick is finding a way to expend the currency. "I'll give you 20 of my credits if you add this item to my mod." Make a bunch but don't hand it out so much or it loses the value.

Provides incentive:
to work on projects, allowing mod community to flourish
for enhanced forum posting
for long-term goals
to help other players
for legal betting pools
to learn the nature of economics
for planned events
on community contribution



sadly someone(s) would have to oversee conflict in trade and keep an eye out for fowl play. There's a number of drawbacks to it but it cant be impossible

What? This isn't monopoly rofl

[Popsoap]

I've never been a fan of monetary prizes for gaming. I just feel it strays too far from the idea of playing for personal entertainment.

Same holds true for professional sports, but that's a different topic.

[Strych6]

I still think a doom currency (limited reputation pts) would add quite a dynamic of incentive. You might need someone with accounting skills or elaborate coding experience to sort out the system well. Trick is finding a way to expend the currency. "I'll give you 20 of my credits if you add this item to my mod." Make a bunch but don't hand it out so much or it loses the value.

Provides incentive:
to work on projects, allowing mod community to flourish
for enhanced forum posting
for long-term goals
to help other players
for legal betting pools
to learn the nature of economics
for planned events
on community contribution



sadly someone(s) would have to oversee conflict in trade and keep an eye out for fowl play. There's a number of drawbacks to it but it cant be impossible

What? This isn't monopoly rofl

It's outlandish I know. Hex's territory-game idea is a lot more of a realistic option, but doesn't really help gears of the mod industry.

[one_Two]

I've never been a fan of monetary prizes for gaming. I just feel it strays too far from the idea of playing for personal entertainment.

Same holds true for professional sports, but that's a different topic.

Everyone wants money, people will play their best to win money, therefore you get the best games and it's entertaining.

[Luke]

I've never been a fan of monetary prizes for gaming. I just feel it strays too far from the idea of playing for personal entertainment.

Same holds true for professional sports, but that's a different topic.

Everyone wants money, people will play their best to win money, therefore you get the best games and it's entertaining.

That is pretty much what I thought.

[Catastrophe]

Mod scene is fine, torr back ported a lot of stuff that will fuel the modding scene.

[Samurai]

Random CTF Tournament:
-Anyone can subscribe.
-Teams will be extracted randomly.
-Ladder, random as well.
-Winning team gets a fancy "winner of the xyz event" banner/title/forum name colour/forum profile badge or whatnot.

I like this idea, From past experience in this particular area, I think many ctf tournies have failed because teams are unbalanced, leading to players getting tired of losing or whatever, thus not playing their games and holding everything up. Random teams would be a risky experiment, although a fun one. It could swing either way, as in turning out to be a disaster never to be repeated, or (hopefully) turning into a fair, and balanced tournament where there isn't a predicatable outcome as so many of our ctf leagues have turned out like previously.

I think the success or failure of such a league would be heavily decided on a factor of who would administrate it. The IDL has had many years (over half a decade) of successful seasons, mainly due to insperational, and decent leadership from their respective administration. If a zan ctf tourney could follow suit in that respect, then the attutide would rub onto the players, and we might finally get a decent ctf tourney we as a port can be proud of.

Just a theory of course

I'd love to hear from some players in those clans why you would choose not to play for lesser clans?

Personally skill has never been much of a decider on what sort of clan I've joined. From memory the clans I've joned

PRO: I originally joined PRO with Bulb and Devisin from ZD so i had some good friends with me, along with Bojan whom i knew well from my transition from ZD to skulltag aswell, so it was more of joining a clan with my friends over anything skill related.

EL: After leaving PRO i didn't know where to go, and after playing a few games with them they seemed alright, so I joined, probably joining EL was one of my regrets though.

Most other clans were hit and miss, although some of my most enjoyable memories from this game were playing with the LF guys when it was in it's prime. After thinking through all but one of my reasons for joining past clans was for friendship reasons. When LF died I would have probably joined N if you had asked me. But to answer your question, no, skill has never been much of a deciding factor for me of joining a clan.

Also sorry if any of this doesn't make sense, I've been working all day and typed this shit at 1am