Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

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Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#1

Post by Impact » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:13 pm

I'd read this thread through and gathered that in the before time many more games were played than there are now, and I can imagine that being true, seeing as I don't see scrims going on that often. I had an idea though that could bring a little more popularity to the idea of competitive play.

I was on Blox's Burl Tumd and suggested that it could be used in SNS. I thought back to the thread and then thought "What if we had pre-organised matches we could play every other (something)day of the week?" So I dwelled on this and came up with my brand-new idea, which for the sake of example I've dubbed Thursday Night Throwdown.

"hnng another takeoff of FNF"

Yes, but the difference being that when CTF FNF is played it's like a public CTF game. Anyone can join at anytime, provided the server isn't full. This TNT idea would allow two weeks for signups, discussions and preparation before matches are played, and the teams are set in stone, possibly with team names/colours/temporary aliases etc.

"So how does the setup work?"

Let's say on the 7th of a Month, a Thursday, a TNT event had just finished. This gives people in charge of the running of the events to start thinking on which gamemode to play next (CTF/TDM/TLMS). On the 11th of said Month (Monday), signups will open and teams can be formed. The players put their details on the forums and wait for enough players to put themselves forward before teams are sorted.
Teams are sorted so skillsets are mixed. This means that there will be a mix of higher-skilled players with the slightly lower-skilled if that's what the pool of players offers. Teams will be sorted and then the organizers leave the team names and all other 'accessories' to the people in the team. Leaders in each team is optional, that's down to you lot. If you are unhappy with your team or think it could be altered for the better, this can be considered.
There will be a cut-off point. If by the Monday before the event (18th of example month) there are fewer than 10 signups then the event will be postponed until next Thursday. This is to ensure there are at least two teams of 4 with 2 back-up players (or three teams of 3 with 1 back-up player, depending on the event) in case of crashes or emergencies in reality. If the target is reached for the week, everyone will be notified on the forum and the event will go ahead on the Thursday of that week.

"What happens on the day?"

Say we have 14 players signed up for a CTF tournament in teams of four. That's three teams plus two backups. Two teams will play against each other first, teams X and Y, and team Z watches. If team X wins, they play team Z and team Y watches. Then team Z plays team Y and the scores are counted. Any ties in wins/losses can be decided by flag difference (Scores for - Scores against), and if those are also equal then a quick game can be played, and the first team to score one flag wins. A game of "golden flag", if you like. If all teams are tied, then two games of "golden flag" are played, the first teams to play play first again to decide against those, and then the third team plays the winners from the first team. All this can vary depending on the amount of people who've signed up and the gamemode that's being played.

"We've run out of back-ups!"

In the unlikely event that all available back-ups have been substituted and another player has to leave, there will be a few minutes' pause. This can be to try and nab someone off of IRC. If that fails, then teams of 4 will split into teams of 3. Some players may have to defect to the enemy if necessary. If all hope is lost then the game is abandoned. Sounds bad, but it also seems like quite an unlikely outcome.

"tl;dr"

Urgh. To summarize this all up for you, this idea is like FNF but instead of public CTF-based it's private/scrim CTF-based. Teams are pre-picked and no one can join part way through without signing up or invited to do so. This gives a structured game session which is like a scrim. Best part? Anyone can join in! Those who don't want to or can't commit to a clan, those who may not feel like they're good enough to be in a clan or join the competitive scene, this is like a taste of what CTF within the Zandronum community is like for you guys. For the more experienced players it's playing CTF more often for all the times missed out due to this decline in competitive play.

It's just an idea I've built upon, but I'd happily take this seriously if you do. What are your opinions?
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#2

Post by IdeIdoom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:42 pm

So, IDL but losers can't come back once defeated? Eh, we had a try with ZCC and it never ended. Though, if you are a good organizer, you should be able to get some people to join this. Also, you should know that people now start working hard in schools or jobs because vacation is over and so on, though if you get enough people for a 4v4, this should be interesting.
Also, make it 3 backups, 1 per team.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#3

Post by Impact » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:47 pm

IdeIdoom wrote: So, IDL but losers can't come back once defeated?
Nah, teams are temporary only for one event, unless similar players are in the next event in a fortnight and they decide to make a clone of the original team. Anyone is free to join as many times as they want. I suppose though, if someone keeps joining and dropping out they could be excluded from joining for an event or two.
IdeIdoom wrote:Also, you should know that people now start working hard in schools or jobs because vacation is over and so on, though if you get enough people for a 4v4, this should be interesting.
Yeah, realized that, I've started work too but this may work if we do it late in the evening. Maybe it would work better on a Friday or Saturday due to people generally not working or in education as much on Saturdays and Sundays, but FNF and SNS are on then. However, I only put it on Thursday as an example and I could call it TNT. It's all theoretical stuff :p
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#4

Post by Shane » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:47 pm

I like the idea, I don't want to bring your hopes down but you might want to hold off on that idea

not to give too much away but there is something already in the making of the like.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#5

Post by IdeIdoom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:48 pm

Impact wrote:
IdeIdoom wrote: So, IDL but losers can't come back once defeated?
Nah, teams are temporary only for one event, unless similar players are in the next event in a fortnight and they decide to make a clone of the original team. Anyone is free to join as many times as they want. I suppose though, if someone keeps joining and dropping out they could be excluded from joining for an event or two.
I didn't mean in the whole life time of the even, I meant in the time of a single event.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#6

Post by Impact » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:49 pm

Shane wrote: I like the idea, I don't want to bring your hopes down but you might want to hold off on that idea

not to give too much away but there is something already in the making of the like.
Hmm, I'm intrigued. Don't have to give any spoilers but is it very similar to this idea? Because if it is that's actually good so then people are already working on this, which personally I think would be a great way to draw popularity to competition and Zandronum as a whole. If not, then I'd still push for this :smile:
IdeIdoom wrote:
Impact wrote:
IdeIdoom wrote: So, IDL but losers can't come back once defeated?
Nah, teams are temporary only for one event, unless similar players are in the next event in a fortnight and they decide to make a clone of the original team. Anyone is free to join as many times as they want. I suppose though, if someone keeps joining and dropping out they could be excluded from joining for an event or two.
I didn't mean in the whole life time of the even, I meant in the time of a single event.
Well it depends on the amount of teams and players, and if most people want to do a whole new round in one event. Like in my example, X v Y, X v Z and Y v Z, is one round.

If there are more teams there are more games, so if a team loses its first round then it has more matches to play anyway.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#7

Post by IdeIdoom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:52 pm

Though, if you are gonna make this, I recommend doing it between 2-3 weeks since it will take time to play the games and can't be played in 1 day.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#8

Post by Impact » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:56 pm

IdeIdoom wrote: Though, if you are gonna make this, I recommend doing it between 2-3 weeks since it will take time to play the games and can't be played in 1 day.
This could make it messy though, if everyone had a date that they must be on at (a Thursday) and a time, people will know when to go. If we spread it out like that then things may get complicated, but it's a good idea though, in case a game cannot be played on a Thursday for whatever reason it could be put off until the weekend where generally more people are on in the evenings.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#9

Post by IdeIdoom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:59 pm

I do have an idea to redeem that: If 2 teams haven't played their match until the next Thursday, I would say give the points to the team with the higher point count.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#10

Post by Impact » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:03 pm

IdeIdoom wrote: I do have an idea to redeem that: If 2 teams haven't played their match until the next Thursday, I would say give the points to the team with the higher point count.
If they've played any matches at all, that is. If a team fails to play any matches in a certain time period and the others have, then I guess that team gets disqualified.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#11

Post by Iced » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:20 pm

Having the event occur only on one day is the best idea, although it is the most inflexible. The reason ZCC never was completed was because, frankly, people lost interest. This would be a neat thing, but I feel like there are so many issues that need to be worked out before this is even attempted (i.e. What gamemodes? How will teams be decided? Will timelimits be cut down to allow for a quicker tournament?)

Also, didn't you just join the community, like, this past summer?

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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#12

Post by Ænima » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:24 pm

I think each week's thread for this should have a poll where players vote on which day of the week they'd be most available.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#13

Post by IdeIdoom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:27 pm

@Iced:
He stated it will be only-CTF based, it will happen every thursday, people have to play their matches until next thursday or they lose and there will be 3+ teams of 4 people with backups. I am not sure on the timelimit though. I hate the IDL timelimit anyway so 15 minutes is fine for me.
Also, if people who usually play a lot of zandronum competition join this, it would work, not people from another port only to lose interest due to source ports difference and not enough activity in that part of the port the tournament is on.
I am not gonna keep bashing ZCC for including mostly IDL players, but come on.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#14

Post by Torvald » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:38 pm

I'm happy to see another thread like this, any attempts to bring activity to the competitive scene always get me excited. I do like the idea, BUT, there has to be a little more structure & thought put into this before fully going through with it. What I see it coming down to (and this is what happened in the ZCC) is that all the people who want to get into competitive will once again - be shoved to the back of the line in favor of top line players; all because of the "I want to win and I will do whatever it takes" mentality. The newcomers will get frustrated, left out, resulting in another attempt failing exactly like the last time, and the time before that, and so on. There needs to be something in place to prevent this from constantly repeating itself.

I can't remember who exactly, but I believe it was either Hydra or myself that proposed an idea way way back with something similar in mind. It was like a hybrid of pub & priv. The idea behind it was to have pro players coach the newbies looking to get into the competitive scene, instead of bringing them in to play against stacked up teams.

The last thing you would want to do is discourage anyone - and that can easily happen if pro players nudge their way into events like this unbalancing teams. This is just me throwing ideas about here: I'd personally suggest holding special events like this, but strictly prohibiting veteran players from signing up and leave it completely to the new players to play against themselves. If you were just starting out a sport, would you really want to be placed on a professional team against another professional team? IMO it's more fun when you have the potential to make the carrying plays instead of a teammate carrying you on their back all the time.

I know when I started out in competitive I had players such as Dragon, Frank, and Cyber who would coach me outside of priv or scrims and show me how to play maps & positions; I had a ball doing it.

Again, just my two cents. I always like to see stuff like this, and I will offer any help I can to make it happen.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#15

Post by IdeIdoom » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:44 pm

Tor-Bjorn wrote: I know when I started out in competitive I had players such as Dragon, Frank, and Cyber who would coach me outside of priv or scrims and show me how to play maps & positions; I had a ball doing it.
Lucky bastard, you at least had one coach.
Anyway, back to what you said:
I know what you mean and I've seen the servers for it in the Spak clusters. Though never seen anyone using it and it didn't last very long. Never seen a coach and a player joining that server to help, or even any of the newbies wanting to join that , and here's my guess, because of the fear of the more skilled players, though wanting to help the lesser ones.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#16

Post by Impact » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:56 pm

Iced wrote: Having the event occur only on one day is the best idea, although it is the most inflexible. The reason ZCC never was completed was because, frankly, people lost interest. This would be a neat thing, but I feel like there are so many issues that need to be worked out before this is even attempted (i.e. What gamemodes? How will teams be decided? Will timelimits be cut down to allow for a quicker tournament?)
I suggest that CTF is the main gamemode, with some TDM and TLMS thrown in to mix things up slightly, give the players a little variety and will thus make things more interesting. Teams will be decided based on each player's skill, roughly making each team as similarly skilled as possible. Time/capture limits and such... well it could vary from each different event but seeing the point that you wouldn't want things to drag on too much I'd suggest a normal of 10 minutes and 5 flags, in CTF. Maybe 8 mins and 75 frags in TDM and no limits on TLMS.
Iced wrote:Also, didn't you just join the community, like, this past summer?
I've grown to like you people, so I've caught up quickly, I guess :razz:
IdeIdoom wrote: He stated it will be only-CTF based, it will happen every thursday, people have to play their matches until next thursday or they lose
CTF/TDM/TLMS based* Every other Thursday* Have to play until the end of the week*
IdeIdoom wrote:I hate the IDL timelimit anyway so 15 minutes is fine for me.
Not sure what that limit is but I reckon 15 is too long for the other players who aren't playing to wait
IdeIdoom wrote:Also, if people who usually play a lot of zandronum competition join this, it would work, not people from another port only to lose interest due to source ports difference and not enough activity in that part of the port the tournament is on.
If it was a mix, the newbies wouldn't feel so singled out and would be learning from the regulars, that's a good point. They'd be encouraged by the community, and this is how we can get a larger player base: an issue raised in the thread I linked in the first post.

Tor-Bjorn wrote: I'm happy to see another thread like this, any attempts to bring activity to the competitive scene always get me excited. I do like the idea, BUT, there has to be a little more structure & thought put into this before fully going through with it.
I totally agree with you, these are just preliminary ideas to build upon to potentially make something worth doing
Tor-Bjorn wrote:What I see it coming down to (and this is what happened in the ZCC) is that all the people who want to get into competitive will once again - be shoved to the back of the line in favor of top line players; all because of the "I want to win and I will do whatever it takes" mentality. The newcomers will get frustrated, left out, resulting in another attempt failing exactly like the last time, and the time before that, and so on. There needs to be something in place to prevent this from constantly repeating itself.

The last thing you would want to do is discourage anyone - and that can easily happen if pro players nudge their way into events like this unbalancing teams. This is just me throwing ideas about here: I'd personally suggest holding special events like this, but strictly prohibiting veteran players from signing up and leave it completely to the new players to play against themselves. If you were just starting out a sport, would you really want to be placed on a professional team against another professional team? IMO it's more fun when you have the potential to make the carrying plays instead of a teammate carrying you on their back all the time.
This is a potential problem, but so everyone has a chance at playing I reckon we could have different teams playing in separate events on the same Thursday in two different servers, if you catch my drift. Regulars on one server, newbies and the inexperienced on the other. That's only if we have a lot of signups on a particular week, though.
Tor-Bjorn wrote:I can't remember who exactly, but I believe it was either Hydra or myself that proposed an idea way way back with something similar in mind. It was like a hybrid of pub & priv. The idea behind it was to have pro players coach the newbies looking to get into the competitive scene, instead of bringing them in to play against stacked up teams.
When was this? If you're still thinking of it, maybe there's a way we can incorporate this into this idea and get something going that's tailored well to newbies, which seems to be the point we're all trying to achieve.
Tor-Bjorn wrote:Again, just my two cents. I always like to see stuff like this, and I will offer any help I can to make it happen.
That's brilliant, thanks for your support :biggrin:
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#17

Post by Cruduxy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:05 pm

Force players into random teams and have them pick their captain.. If someone refuses they can go out with that attitude :P
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#18

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:58 pm

Sorry, won't work. Stuff like this has been attempted more times than I can remember. It just never works.

It goes like this first week everyone has the drive for it, but as the weeks go by people get irritated and don't wanna play anymore.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#19

Post by Torvald » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:04 pm

Impact I found the link to the old thread. Looking back it wasn't as elaborate as I had recalled it to be. But the idea was cool.
Here's the link to the old thread.


in reply to the rest of your post, I agree with it completely. Having the skills split into other servers would definitely be an excellent idea. But like you said - we'll need the sign ups for that.
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RE: Possible solution to the clan scene's decline

#20

Post by RedShirt » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:38 am

I definitely support this idea and would be more than willing to help out if you do get things up and running. As Tor said, we had a similar idea months ago, we could throw ideas back and forth if you like.
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