low & mid-card clans/players must play more to ensure a good future for the scene

[Torvald]

What I did to become good was to simply play on Zdaemon back then. Now that it's kind of dead, you guys would probably not get any better in there.

This was a good idea. When Zdaemon had 2-3 active pub servers at the time, I'd go there and practice what I needed to work on - it really did pay off. But like you said, it's pretty much dead now; so that train has departed.

[Catastrophe]

From what I'm reading, I really don't think you should be going around saying which clans are good and which aren't. It's just trouble brewing.

[Strych6]

There should be +rep points (or whatever reward system) for people who are actively showing the ropes. Perhaps the staff can find a few trusty and willing participants to mark as Instructor (on forums, or a tag etc)

Too many times do I introduce doom to my peers, only to have their hopes shattered by the might of our players. As hilarious as it is, we should take some action about it.

Its kind of like wall-market and starbuster's

[Reach Term]

From what I'm reading, I really don't think you should be going around saying which clans are good and which aren't. It's just trouble brewing.

Agreed. I'm just saying it as a matter of context but I don't want it to be taken as a legit marking in the clan scene. To quote MC Conrad: It's all a matter of opinions.

[Nightmare420]

From my small time spent in priv, I felt that being very low on the skill side of things I always wanted more information on things I was uncertain about. Movement,Aiming,Strategy, and what other things that went into making a play-style. However, I was showed a bunch of things that where very vague and didn't go into detail enough for me to understand. It seemed to be very simple minded for what you need to know. Just run and gun and have great aim to match, furthermore this was seemingly implied that it was easy when it wasn't at all. Through out my time spent in other games, they actually put more information into whats really going on in a match between two top tier players, instead of giving bare scraps of information that leaves many lost trying to find what is right and what is wrong.

In these games, lower tier players are supported enough to get them started building their skill level through experience of course, but with the knowledge needed to get it going faster. Most new players want it to go faster instead of this long, dragged out, grinding to the top. There will always be a bit of time that is need go full professional, but having it shorten is better. Easy to learn, hard to master has been great way get people to consistently fill up the community, but it seems that to make this a reality, it would take a lot of effort that the competitive community isn't willing to do at the moment. They almost completely don't see (or care enough) that there isn't enough diversity to build skill. For me, it took 3 weeks to duel Shadowforce once, even using IRC at the time and in ended up being by coincidence.

*Learn the physics and mechanics of the game and the scene - This is a lesson learned from Tor and Water, you can go up pretty quickly if you understand the game and also the priv's physics and mechanics. They've went from obscure GvH players to Water in R and Tor in PRO

This would be more helpful if it showed out in public or talked about on forums.

*Everyone plays "the game" You should too - Don't expect to be in the high card clans in the next two years if you're not quickly talented. Mostly everyone in these high card clans are have been player since 2005 or even earlier. Don't be thinking of the sky when you just join.

So, if everyone plays "the game" I should play too, even if I not ever picked to play as well? Seems too much of a boring idea to begin with. Just sit and watch hasn't been a good tool for learning for me and others for that matter. Everyone learns a different way, being aware of this is key to getting as much people into the game as a whole.

*Aim doesn't mean anything - This is the case for AVC, He has a good aim but lacks respect to fellow players, chemistry with those people and hindsight ability to think for his team.

I seen this too, but seems to matter a lot when you find out that most solid clans care only about skill, not respectability. So this means getting in a "solid clan" much harder especially when there is very few of them. For what I have seen its much better to be the best rather than a low tier player. You'll be treated much better by comparison, even if you are completely disrespectful to most people.

*Respect the people who deserves it and respect the scene - This is a lesson from myself, I've been respecting all of the top high cards since I came back and I also respected the scene even during my infamy days. Although, I myself is not a high card person nor in a high card clan(Because I have no intentions to join a clan due to my part time status) At least I support it and help people if when they need it.

Judging from people's actions here, it seems like they could care less about the scene as a whole. Just keep playing with the same people and not inviting anyone else in on the action at all and hope it survives long enough for the future players to enjoy. It seems be whole idea most pros go with.

Just saying practice 3 times isn't a tip if you don't what you'll be looking for and you'll dragging out the time rather than using it wisely. At the end of the day all I ever wanted is more explanation instead just go to Zdaemon and practice talking. It seems to pointless to do that when you find out it doesn't give the full experience as if it was priv game in Zandronum (because almost all top players don't play there as well and you'll be treated the same way as here). If anything needs to change, its how we handle how new players completely. Getting disrespected, kicked from playing (because of making a mistake), and not being picked at all isn't going be something that builds future at all. Being more open minded, and more inviting and appealing is a better setting for new players, that is the way to go.

[Samurai]

I understand your view, nowadays it is hard to compete in the priv scene, especially if you're a new player wanting to learn all about it. My advice for you though would be to try to start out in the public ctf scene before you jump into the deep end that is priv. Many of the competitve players you see nowadays started in pub, whether here or zdaemon, and afterwards adjusted themselves to priv, i think very few would have just started out in priv. The only problem with this sadly is that public ctf rarely gets played, well at least when you compare it to how much priv is played. The only thing i could recomend is waiting in a server for it to fill up, if there isnt a server already half full for it. Personally i'd always be happy to help start up some pub ctf and i know others would be too.

As for the respect thing, it's a two way thing. I'd like to think that i respect people who show it to me back, no matter whom they are. Sadly however, without naming names, some people here enjoy sucking the dick of anyone with half decent skill, and will treat the rest of the community like shit.

[Watermelon]

Way to get to the top from ground zero (the bottom):

- Play ZD pub, learn every map especially well that is in the IDL (3 months)
- Now while still playing pub to maintain aim, play duels and priv if you can (1-2 months)
- Now that you know how priv is, watch IDL demos and specifically note how the best players play, then apply that to your game (1-2 months)
- Join a clan and now play private CTF and scrims almost exclusively, constantly asking yourself where you went wrong and how to fix it (6+ months)
- Try to play in the IDL or any tourneys that show up, while playing the best people you possibly can (continuous)

If someone legitimately followed the above path, you can get to the top in a year or so, even under these horrible conditions where not too many people play.


I pretty much did that exact path (except I played duels and deathmatch on ZD before starting the first point) and look where I am...
The reason why people end up sucking and not get better is because after a few months they get an attitude, and/or refuse to analyze themselves for why they suck (ego). I always watched myself in my own demos and pinpointed dumb mistakes, then made a mental note not to do it again. Sometimes I still do but it's not common anymore.

[Slyfox]

I totally agree with samurai/water on the pub ctf/duels thing and practice; You can ask blue that I had the shittiest start in the competitive scene [rofl] but eventually I managed to get into a high tier clan [A3] and actually manage to compete with R, Pro, and the other high tiers our there.

[Fluffles]

Most important aspect of doom competition I've learnt is to be a good sport, people are likely to help others who deserve to get better and also keeping a cool head makes you allot better at dueling (over time)

[Catastrophe]

...Why did this get bumped again? It's basically cheater giving his biased opinions.

Basically, don't be afraid to branch off of the "main" priv to go play on your own. That's all you need.

[Stall]

I think people just don't know how to get better. IMO, the first thing you need to start off with is aiming. Once you get your shot perfected, the rest comes easily with a bit of brain power. Once you start fragging well and playing smart, you'll get noticed. It's as simple as that!

[Bloax]

A big problem is kind of that there aren't that many truly laid-back clans really left for anyone to join and have fun with.
In addition to the "low-tier" of the entire scene seemingly dying out (or could we say that's a correlation?), that's not a very good thing if you're still a new lump of dough.

Because making some buddies and duking it out with other ones that aren't going to completely smash you to bits in three minutes was probably one of the good things of the 2009-2010-ish period.
Now it doesn't really seem like there's the big variation in such things, because back in said 2009-2010-ish period I seem to recall quite a bunch of probably-won't-trash-you-completely clans;
Namely DRZ, MLK, [DI]x (Though later on there was kind of a bigger focus on getting gud if I recall) and later on [X] if I recall right?

Right now there's another iteration of DRZ, and the newfagsguys who weren't really received well and known as <HURR>
- (and even then, I'm really only going off that you guys seem to be quite new around here, oh bloax you nasty guy you)

There might be some others, but those are the only two who seem to look like they fit the bill.

Meanwhile there's a whole multitude of mid/mid-high/high tier clans.
It's nothing new, but there's really a lower crowd missing.

[legion]

I do not recommend playing zdaemon pub to even get started. the players I've seen on zdaemon pubs have no gamesense whatsoever, and are usually laggier than should be possible (exceptions do exist, but that list is dwarfed by the list of average zdaemon pubbers) (see this for a demonstration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OITOaYQe7eI )

duels on zandronum are usually the best place to get started. there you can hone both your technical skill and knowledge of the metagame

[Powerman]

The issue with competitive game modes, at least to me, is no one ever is playing them, or it's private. And since I know no one to tell me the password (and I'm not well known enough to get it either) I have to rely on public to get noticed, to be in a clan, to anything ever. The not so noticeable people (because of skill, being new, or whatever) have to wait forever for others to play, and have to go through the really bad god awful players, and it just is a near impossible uphill battle. And if a competitive gamemode does come around it is never vanilla. It is ruined with something. Samsara (or however it is spelled) is awesome don't get me wrong, but no "competitive" clan would play it. Ghouls VS humans (UGHHHHH!) I hate personally and think is quite dumb (no offense) But that is competitive, but isn't my cup of tea. I just want some CTF,DM,TeamDM, With Stock weapons.

[Samurai]

The issue with competitive game modes, at least to me, is no one ever is playing them, or it's private. And since I know no one to tell me the password (and I'm not well known enough to get it either) I have to rely on public to get noticed, to be in a clan, to anything ever. The not so noticeable people (because of skill, being new, or whatever) have to wait forever for others to play, and have to go through the really bad god awful players, and it just is a near impossible uphill battle. And if a competitive gamemode does come around it is never vanilla. It is ruined with something. Samsara (or however it is spelled) is awesome don't get me wrong, but no "competitive" clan would play it. Ghouls VS humans (UGHHHHH!) I hate personally and think is quite dumb (no offense) But that is competitive, but isn't my cup of tea. I just want some CTF,DM,TeamDM, With Stock weapons.

If you want the password to grandvoid servers, i'd go onto #grandvoid and ask konar6 for a unique password. If you want a password for NJ or something, pm me and i'll give you one, i'm usually around in #lf

[Lollipop]

Hey RT, find me another mid-tier competitive clan to scrim with.

*le me points at his tag*
I do not have conplete control over the clan as of now, there is too much confusion on the number of members, because the list is messed up and only a few members know our forums.
If you got interest, I can contact you when the "troops" are assembled :)

EDIT:

I think people just don't know how to get better. IMO, the first thing you need to start off with is aiming. Once you get your shot perfected, the rest comes easily with a bit of brain power. Once you start fragging well and playing smart, you'll get noticed. It's as simple as that!

That is a fact there, I have not perfected my aim, I don't say I have anything special to offer a scrim clan, but I prefer to think strategically and usually end up with people telling me to "STFU AND PLAY ALREADY U MORRON" (in AOW that is at least), which isn't really showing that the people use their heads, so they will never get pro like the big hot shots.

[Nightmare420]

I would also like to add in that competitive doom in Zandronum is becoming more stale for everyone? Or just not being played a lot. I would like it much more if there was more different competitive wads being played. However, it seems that IDL and Duel32 wad series are the only competitive wads the community seems to be into at the moment. I miss teamdeathmatch a lot, but I don't see the reincarnation of teamdeatchmatch or other competitive gamemodes. I feel as if competitive doom in Zandronum is almost very narrow with its choices for competitive wads to play consistently. Meanwhile, that Zandronum has many choices to choose from. Also I agree with you Bloax, there is huge lack of a "low-tier and laid back clans". I almost wondering if the focus is in the wrong place. Meaning that its not in building good friendships and just enjoying doom, instead it seems about high-end side only as much as I can. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a question. Why any one come to online doom and learn to play competitive on Zandronum? Because I wonder if competitive is still gathering people in public eye.


But it can be true, doom is nearing it's 20th birthday and that is a long time in current state of gaming. Especially in a time when there has been much more done after doom's birth. Personally, I think that we should take the to notice and/or make more competitive wads and play more gamemodes. I've met some people who completely hate the new modes, but the competitive doom community doesn't as nearly builds itself up as much as the modding community does. There seems to be sense that any can be made it'll be played.
Meanwhile, when it comes to competitive doom it always a long wait for some new to be made and to have any consistent play.


So, with these issues I think that some people have become bored and chosen to leave and take break from doom from a lack of an changing environment or just not play in zandronum. Is there any need for a change now or no? I'll end with this question.

[IdeIdoom]

Now that we have two clans, not exactly competetive, we can say we have some laid back clans.
We have low tier clans, such as J, N, and W.
Also mid tier clans.
You can scrim in tdm if you want. Just ask for a 2v2 tdm match and I am sure you will have one.
About needing change? Not to a mod-centric port.