Should server hosts charge for zandronum hosting?

[Catastrophe]

Yes. This should be allowed like it is in almost every modern game with self-hosting. Trying to moderate charged server hosting opens a big can of worms that no one has the time (or patience) to put up with anymore.

[buckshot]

Alrighty then at least it can be narrowed down to scummy price gouging.

Which, while scummy, isn't really illegal. This goes for most kinds of snake oil, really.

Buyers Beware, everyone. Do your research before you fork over the cash.

I think it boils down to paying for the convenience and support if preffered.

I'm sure there's plenty who can do their own hosting, find free hosting, and are completely comfortable managing their own servers and setups.

Then there's folks, such as myself, who don't have the time to do so and just want someone else to handle it all, and don't mind paying or donating to the cause. They are providing a service, after all, at the expense of their own hardware, circuit, and team. Those things do cost money and time, even if it's miniscule compared to newer titles that denand far more horsepower. Several dollars out of my monthly income is not going to kill me... But it does get me worry-free hosting and support.

I mean either way you go about it, neither method is right or wrong. It's just the preference of the individual wanting to host, so long as the paid services are within reasonable pricing in return for the support provided.

[mifu]

I have servers through VGP, and VGP Miles has been nothing but awesome to deal with. He assists with a lot of setup, config, and keeping it all running for me. I know very little about game server stuff so anytime I have a question, change, or issue, I just let him know and he's on it usually within a few moments. He's helped me learn quite a bit of stuff for RCON, Linux zandro commands, etc, too.

VGP also hosts servers on east and west coast, and he gave me the option, so my DOOM FBG servers I have an average of like 30ping or so off the east coast where I'm close to.

We worked out a very nominal monthly fee for these services and support, and as they are providing the backend, infrastructure, isp, servers, and realtime support for any little thing that I might need on the fly... I couldn't be happier. Definetley do not feel like I'm needlessly spending or getting ripped off. Will also mention I'm very busy and don't have much time to mess with all of it myself. The little freetime I do have these days, I just want to jump on the server and play with other folks.

just my 2 cents. Some of us don't mind contributing for such a level of service.

-Buckshot_Strunk

Thanks for the testimonial. I am glad that hes helped you out I guess. There is a huge problem however. I get that hosting servers cost a lot so we get it. Problem is the doom community has never had a host charge for servers before (of course if I'm wrong someone can tell me, but at least its a first in zandronum) and as such, this raises a few eyebrows.

For example, TSPG. If you wanted to you can throw up 3 servers, for free with the option of getting more slots via donations. We do not force a paywall were we are like "sorry bro, you gota pay this to host on our services" If anything, TSPG is not really a service, its a cluster that allows people to host.. For FREE being the key word.

There's also Nuclear Empire. While they don't have something like us, if you talk to one of their server admins, they would probably host your server and more..... wait for it? For FREE.

One has to understand that since there is free services for this sort of thing makes charging for hosting around here seem sketchy.

I have heard however that this particular person is now able to stop paying for hosting which is cool but im afraid this has opened a can of worms that needs to be closed. So heres what needs to be done now.

Firstly I would like to invite miles (and any other VGP server admins) to have a chat with me and nax about this as this is something we need to discuss moving forward.

Also we are not going to restrict peoples server clusters if they want to charge but nax is right. Want to make sure theres no foul play so we will be working to hopefully put in some of his proposal. Feel free to keep discussing this however but again. Be civil.

[dantos123]

I have servers through VGP, and VGP Miles has been nothing but awesome to deal with. He assists with a lot of setup, config, and keeping it all running for me. I know very little about game server stuff so anytime I have a question, change, or issue, I just let him know and he's on it usually within a few moments. He's helped me learn quite a bit of stuff for RCON, Linux zandro commands, etc, too.

VGP also hosts servers on east and west coast, and he gave me the option, so my DOOM FBG servers I have an average of like 30ping or so off the east coast where I'm close to.

We worked out a very nominal monthly fee for these services and support, and as they are providing the backend, infrastructure, isp, servers, and realtime support for any little thing that I might need on the fly... I couldn't be happier. Definetley do not feel like I'm needlessly spending or getting ripped off. Will also mention I'm very busy and don't have much time to mess with all of it myself. The little freetime I do have these days, I just want to jump on the server and play with other folks.

just my 2 cents. Some of us don't mind contributing for such a level of service.

-Buckshot_Strunk

Thanks for the testimonial. I am glad that hes helped you out I guess. There is a huge problem however. I get that hosting servers cost a lot so we get it. Problem is the doom community has never had a host charge for servers before (of course if I'm wrong someone can tell me, but at least its a first in zandronum) and as such, this raises a few eyebrows.

For example, TSPG. If you wanted to you can throw up 3 servers, for free with the option of getting more slots via donations. We do not force a paywall were we are like "sorry bro, you gota pay this to host on our services" If anything, TSPG is not really a service, its a cluster that allows people to host.. For FREE being the key word.

There's also Nuclear Empire. While they don't have something like us, if you talk to one of their server admins, they would probably host your server and more..... wait for it? For FREE.

One has to understand that since there is free services for this sort of thing makes charging for hosting around here seem sketchy.

I have heard however that this particular person is now able to stop paying for hosting which is cool but im afraid this has opened a can of worms that needs to be closed. So heres what needs to be done now.

Firstly I would like to invite miles (and any other VGP server admins) to have a chat with me and nax about this as this is something we need to discuss moving forward.

Also we are not going to restrict peoples server clusters if they want to charge but nax is right. Want to make sure theres no foul play so we will be working to hopefully put in some of his proposal. Feel free to keep discussing this however but again. Be civil.

I for one would love to get this sorted out as well to clear up some things. if u want to hit me up my discord tag is dantos#9376

[loismustdie555]

If you have a problem with someone; Be an adult about it, bring it up with them in a PM or in an Email or mention you want to speak with them in some place they frequently visit.
The most childish thing possible is to go behind their backs, make vague indescriptive posts online about what they're doing and how you dislike it, slandering them in the process with mostly lies and/or out of context conversation tidbits that only show what *YOU* want others to see.
It's also quite immature to go around assuming things, then going to everyone and everywhere else and claiming that what you assumed is absolute truth.
Again, If you have an issue, speak to the person you have the issue with and ask for facts about what they're doing rather than asking other people who aren't staff for information.
Not every member of VGP knows everything staff do. There's a reason we have staff roles. And there's a lot that happens in the background that only staff know about.

You're not in primary school, and you aren't children so at least try and act like it.


If you want to speak with me or any other staff member of VGP, you can join our Discord or you can PM any of the following current staff members (on Discord);

@dantos#9376
@Loismustdie555#0666
@miles#2434
@LadySlash#0440
@Zedek the Plague Doc.#9785
@=M=#8216

[NachtIntellect]

If you have a problem with someone; Be an adult about it, bring it up with them in a PM or in an Email or mention you want to speak with them in some place they frequently visit.
The most childish thing possible is to go behind their backs, make vague indescriptive posts online about what they're doing and how you dislike it, slandering them in the process with mostly lies and/or out of context conversation tidbits that only show what *YOU* want others to see.
It's also quite immature to go around assuming things, then going to everyone and everywhere else and claiming that what you assumed is absolute truth.
Again, If you have an issue, speak to the person you have the issue with and ask for facts about what they're doing rather than asking other people who aren't staff for information.
Not every member of VGP knows everything staff do. There's a reason we have staff roles. And there's a lot that happens in the background that only staff know about.

You're not in primary school, and you aren't children so at least try and act like it.


If you want to speak with me or any other staff member of VGP, you can join our Discord or you can PM any of the following current staff members (on Discord);

@dantos#9376
@Loismustdie555#0666
@miles#2434
@LadySlash#0440
@Zedek the Plague Doc.#9785
@=M=#8216

Well I could actually bring up something here but I am not going to, so you are the one who is somehow responsible for this paid server thing at least in one way shape of form? I am not going to lie that does not surprise me in the least especially since you've come about this in the most hostile way possible then try to cover it up with "You shouldn't be talking about this here, it'll ruin my chance of earning income from honest people" that my friend is exactly the way I see it but regardless I too think it's scummy to do that, the price it should be is anywhere from $70-$85, if someone's going to pay for a year mate at least give them a discount of some sorts because the way you've worked this out it's like $10 a month, if someone's going to pay upfront a price for membership make it so they are getting some sort of deal.

[loismustdie555]

If you have a problem with someone; Be an adult about it, bring it up with them in a PM or in an Email or mention you want to speak with them in some place they frequently visit.
The most childish thing possible is to go behind their backs, make vague indescriptive posts online about what they're doing and how you dislike it, slandering them in the process with mostly lies and/or out of context conversation tidbits that only show what *YOU* want others to see.
It's also quite immature to go around assuming things, then going to everyone and everywhere else and claiming that what you assumed is absolute truth.
Again, If you have an issue, speak to the person you have the issue with and ask for facts about what they're doing rather than asking other people who aren't staff for information.
Not every member of VGP knows everything staff do. There's a reason we have staff roles. And there's a lot that happens in the background that only staff know about.

You're not in primary school, and you aren't children so at least try and act like it.


If you want to speak with me or any other staff member of VGP, you can join our Discord or you can PM any of the following current staff members (on Discord);

@dantos#9376
@Loismustdie555#0666
@miles#2434
@LadySlash#0440
@Zedek the Plague Doc.#9785
@=M=#8216

Well I could actually bring up something here but I am not going to, so you are the one who is somehow responsible for this paid server thing at least in one way shape of form? I am not going to lie that does not surprise me in the least especially since you've come about this in the most hostile way possible then try to cover it up with "You shouldn't be talking about this here, it'll ruin my chance of earning income from honest people" that my friend is exactly the way I see it but regardless I too think it's scummy to do that, the price it should be is anywhere from $70-$85, if someone's going to pay for a year mate at least give them a discount of some sorts because the way you've worked this out it's like $10 a month, if someone's going to pay upfront a price for membership make it so they are getting some sort of deal.

Miles controls most of this stuff. If people want to negotiate a deal or a discount, we have no problems with that. And nothing ever said otherwise.
Also as for the comment of "You shouldn't be talking about this here, it'll ruin my chance of earning income from honest people", that's not even remotely what this is about. And if you truly believe that's what it is then sadly you are very mistaken.
It's also more than *JUST* zandronum we run. We run other games and other stuff as well.

[NachtIntellect]

Alright fair enough but your initial comment seemed a bit hostile which is why I've chosen to take it that way, Mifu wanted to see how the community felt about such a thing and that's what an Admin should do, it is the community that has kept Doom alive for so long without the community there wouldn't even be servers so yeah try to consider another perspective of things instead of just seeing these as attacks people are going to say exactly how they feel about the matter and that's just the fact of which may seem like childish banter to you.

[loismustdie555]

Alright fair enough but your initial comment seemed a bit hostile which is why I've chosen to take it that way, Mifu wanted to see how the community felt about such a thing and that's what an Admin should do, it is the community that has kept Doom alive for so long without the community there wouldn't even be servers so yeah try to consider another perspective of things instead of just seeing these as attacks people are going to say exactly how they feel about the matter and that's just the fact of which may seem like childish banter to you.

I did not intend for anything I said to come across as hostile, I'm not the best at conveying my emotions or conversational intent via text.
I was trying to imply that instead of talking to me or Miles or Dantos, everyone went nuts and got information about us from just about everyone else who isn't staff.

[mondobizarrro]

Sorry for the late response but as a Former staff member of VGP, even i would've had some idea on how their system works, but not one came to even dm me about this. But to affirm what lois said, he is correct.

It also seems that a lot of people just wanted to hop on the "vgp is trash" hype train before asking about the practices of VGP itself. Which i dunno is people are serious or not. But what confuses me is that not alot of people, if any at all to my knowledge, messaged miles, or any of the other staff, and just went off of random VGP members instead. As a former VGP admin, i would know that being a member of VGP more or less is a freebie position for joining the discord.

Regardless of how you see myself or how any of VGP's staff act to you. Would it not hurt to ask any questions to the staff running it? im sure they wouldnt mind taking the time to reply. Because writing a "community question" about an incident before you know all of the details clearly is not the wau to do things.

[Mobius]

I have servers through VGP, and VGP Miles has been nothing but awesome to deal with. He assists with a lot of setup, config, and keeping it all running for me. I know very little about game server stuff so anytime I have a question, change, or issue, I just let him know and he's on it usually within a few moments. He's helped me learn quite a bit of stuff for RCON, Linux zandro commands, etc, too.

VGP also hosts servers on east and west coast, and he gave me the option, so my DOOM FBG servers I have an average of like 30ping or so off the east coast where I'm close to.

We worked out a very nominal monthly fee for these services and support, and as they are providing the backend, infrastructure, isp, servers, and realtime support for any little thing that I might need on the fly... I couldn't be happier. Definetley do not feel like I'm needlessly spending or getting ripped off. Will also mention I'm very busy and don't have much time to mess with all of it myself. The little freetime I do have these days, I just want to jump on the server and play with other folks.

just my 2 cents. Some of us don't mind contributing for such a level of service.

-Buckshot_Strunk

All that you could have gotten for free. I was hosting my own home servers in 2008 with minimal help save for Wartorn, random players in the servers, Cutmanmike, and DTDSphere when a situation arises. Doomexplorer has a tab for hosting out of your home connection or you can use TSPG
https://allfearthesentinel.net/rules.php
and join their discord here
https://discordapp.com/invite/Ux4cZyC

and if you need help with rcon
https://wiki.zandronum.com/Server_Variables

If you play to use commands in-game then you can type in

Code: Select all

Send Password <Your password>

from there on every command you write starts with

Code: Select all

Rcon sv_commandhere

What helps is pressing tab and the console will either auto-complete or offer a list of commands for you to execute even by first letter of the command.

That'd be $120 a year for my services. I accept it in paypal

Why do you need 30 ping for? Do you plan on playing competitive doom?

I think it boils down to paying for the convenience and support if preffered.

I'm sure there's plenty who can do their own hosting, find free hosting, and are completely comfortable managing their own servers and setups.

Then there's folks, such as myself, who don't have the time to do so and just want someone else to handle it all, and don't mind paying or donating to the cause. They are providing a service, after all, at the expense of their own hardware, circuit, and team. Those things do cost money and time, even if it's miniscule compared to newer titles that denand far more horsepower. Several dollars out of my monthly income is not going to kill me... But it does get me worry-free hosting and support.

I mean either way you go about it, neither method is right or wrong. It's just the preference of the individual wanting to host, so long as the paid services are within reasonable pricing in return for the support provided.

Typing a few commands in console isn't really that hard. What services could he possibly offer you that you couldn't do yourself?

[nax]

@Mobius I'm personally fine if they don't want to use tspg - we have our own culture and rules that maybe others wouldn't appreciate. However my concern more lies in how informed people are when they're presented a pricetag - I believe alternatives must be present in any kind of deal. There's advantages and disadvantages to using something like tspg or ne, since we have more control over individual servers.

Tspg is already considering how to implement a donation incentive of more personalized and host controlled server- ie one without the tag. But we would explicitly tell people what alternatives they have.

[dantos123]

Word i would see the point of why people would be against it.

[buckshot]

Mobius, I greatly appreciate that info, and in time I will learn a bit more. I use to host my own servers using just doomseeker/zandro on my windows box at home... But my isp is dynamic IP so I got tired of constantly having to change those configs and settings to match. Ofcourrse, I used the gui-based game setup tool for creating my server types, so the zandro Linux (and Linux CLI) commands and setups still perplexed me a bit. Miles has been been teaching me quite a bit of the CLI and zandro config/ini stuff as well, but I'm not exagerrating when I say I have limited time in a day to learn and mess with these things. My job is pretty much non-stop, so I'm lucky if I even get a hour at home anymore a day to play games... Much less worry about hosting them.

Like I said, I've known miles for sometime as he's a very active member in my group and on other groups. He's always been extremely helpful with things or questions any of us have, both VGP related and non-VGP related. With that said, I don't know how VGP staff presents itself outside of our group, but they've always been extremely helpful and courteous to myself and our group members. That's the impression that's been made on me, so that is my perspective.

When I reached out to Miles to help me with a East coast server for 10+ slots, I specifically implied I wanted him and VGP to manage it all, that I did not have the time to do so myself. I (and I will clarify), I personally asked him how much he would charge for that kind of support and the price he gave me was ridiculously low, so I offered him a bit more because of how helpful he's been to me and our group in the past. He was actually a little shocked by my geneorsity to contribute more than his lesser asking price. I also informed him I spoke to the owner of the formentioned (whom we are calling Jeff) and Jeff and I had agreed to let me officially sponsor his server as part of my Facebook Doom group and I would cover any server fees associated in exchange for tagging his server as part of our Doom group (which is nearly 20k members strong). He had no issues with that, as I've always been a huge fan of classic dwango-style servers and that's primarily what his server is. Jeff maintains all rights and operates the server under that agreement, and I cover any expense for it.

In case there is any doubt, I have all of this in messenger chat logs from both miles and Jeff, and can provide them if needed to confirm my claim that I *intentionally* sought out server support from VGP and offered them more for all the help they've provided me than what was asked and for immediate support.

I do absolutely appreciate the suggestions of alternative free and cost-savings options. And even more so, I appreciate the staff and members here on the forums for their continuous efforts and support, and addressing these concerns.Perhaps down the road I may consider these options, but for now I'm perfectley happy with VGP handling my requirements, and I've conducted my business with them on a history of good relations and refferal.

Hope this helps rectify the concerns about VGP and puts it to rest. :)

[Mobius]

When I reached out to Miles to help me with a East coast server for 10+ slots, I specifically implied I wanted him and VGP to manage it all, that I did not have the time to do so myself. I (and I will clarify), I personally asked him how much he would charge for that kind of support and the price he gave me was ridiculously low, so I offered him a bit more because of how helpful he's been to me and our group in the past. He was actually a little shocked by my geneorsity to contribute more than his lesser asking price. I also informed him I spoke to the owner of the formentioned (whom we are calling Jeff) and Jeff and I had agreed to let me officially sponsor his server as part of my Facebook Doom group and I would cover any server fees associated in exchange for tagging his server as part of our Doom group (which is nearly 20k members strong). He had no issues with that, as I've always been a huge fan of classic dwango-style servers and that's primarily what his server is. Jeff maintains all rights and operates the server under that agreement, and I cover any expense for it.

Very interesting, but I don't know if Zandronum even sees 20k unique users on its servers in a good day. This begs the question and that is:

What wads are you running on these servers? Also I ask again why do you need 30+ ping? Are you doing PVP?

[buckshot]

Very interesting, but I don't know if Zandronum even sees 20k unique users on its servers in a good day. This begs the question and that is:

What wads are you running on these servers? Also I ask again why do you need 30+ ping? Are you doing PVP?

Heh, you're going to laugh, but primarily just classic DOOM series coop and deathmatch servers, including heretic. Eventually I'll add in some brutal servers, choclate doom, and some free slots for members of the groups who want private parties scheduled (at no charge to them). I also have some survival servers of the classic coop campaigns. Truth be told, there's *SO* many custom mod/wad servers out there that I feel others have those bases already covered. The facebook groups that I help run focus on primarily vanilla doom 1 thru 2016 and other id titles/of thaat era titles. Also, the largest closed group we run is 20k members, but not all of them do DOOM on PC or even multiplay period, so I'm hosting these servers, broadcasting group plaay events, getting those who are unaware of zandro or source ports (yes, beleive it or not, there's still a lot of DOOM fans around the globe who aare unfamiuliar with the PC source port/mod scene), getting them involved, showing them how awesome it is, and really trying to encourage them to get active so they don't miss out.

A lot of them are hardcore DOOM/Quake veterans of course who love to hang out on discord or teamspeak and shoot the shit while doing some coop or deathmatch (of course, my servers have little to offer for them in the world of mods out there, but they still get a kick out of the classics from time to time), but there's a lot of new fans too. Just trying to do something fun and relative for the community. Of course, that's the largest group on Facebook, though I help admin a few other smaller ones (in the 10k or 5k member range). You'll find a lot of these players, their first steps in DOOM were not always on the PC... some started on PSX, some on SNES or Jaguar, or N64, and hell... some of them go into DOOM from the most recent 2016 entry. Doesn't matter how long or how they got into DOOM or what they played it on... We really want them to explore and enjoy everything DOOM has to offer, and really get them involved with the community and maybe someday contribute and make really cool stuff! We get a lot of support from the developers of the series, both past and present, and of other games who also participate and are members of the group, some of which a lot of us have become good friends with... they get to talk to them, interact with them. It's a great crowd we've got that grows everyday :)

My freetime is pretty much all things DOOM, and in case you have doubts on that statement, I offer you proof:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... e6707a354a

[buckshot]

I doubt zandronum sees even 1000 unique users across its servers in a year.

What's up with this 20k bit? That's a lot of people completely uninvolved with the doom community at large and are entirely meaningless. Remember the 20k. Just like odamex has 800 downloads a week.

People who sign up to a page to say "i like doom" and then basically evaporate are worthless, just inflated numbers.

Can't wait to see all these new users actually playing the game online

Not all of them are active, but many are. As with any community. Some stay for a day, some a week, a year, and while not all... many stick around for life. Just yesterday I did a coop broadcast, entire server was full all night, shit ton of the members viewed the live gameplay, a lot of folks enjoyed it. I think its safe to say not everyone in the group, but a good chunk of them tag along. I don't think that's a unreasonable statement. I do my best to get those folks who sign up to be active, but I can't twist their arm into it. At least being persistent with interesting things and events increases the likelihood.

[Mobius]

I'm very skeptical about 20,000 people on a facebook group willing to play and I got a lot of people in PM right now that say I am right. I'll bet 3,000 CAD that your 120 dollar purchase of these servers will be as effective as if Zandronum was advertised for free, because they would be here already. 20k is a lot of people to statistically NOT have "hardcore doom" veterans. Now if this was true on any port there'd be an influx of Deathmatch servers exploding with large bouts of activity (Zandronum client max is 64 players). Odamex barely sees 12 people in a WDL season and Zdaemon consist of the same 50 people. How is it suddenly this facebook group hasn't already been here as out of 20,000 of them at least 1,000 of them will show initiative.

You say you admin a facebook group of the 5k to 10k range? Do you not know what ranges are? Are you aware that with such a huge group you'll probably have a much tighter range of numbers than having 5 thousand people in between that kind of spread. It seems to me Buckshot is probably a troll at this point or is suffering some buyer's remorse and is in one of his defensive mechanism denying that he made a horrible purchase.

[buckshot]

I'm very skeptical about 20,000 people on a facebook group willing to play and I got a lot of people in PM right now that say I am right. I'll bet 3,000 CAD that your 120 dollar purchase of these servers will be as effective as if Zandronum was advertised for free, because they would be here already. 20k is a lot of people to statistically NOT have "hardcore doom" veterans. Now if this was true on any port there'd be an influx of Deathmatch servers exploding with large bouts of activity (Zandronum client max is 64 players). Odamex barely sees 12 people in a WDL season and Zdaemon consist of the same 50 people. How is it suddenly this facebook group hasn't already been here as out of 20,000 of them at least 1,000 of them will show initiative.

You say you admin a facebook group of the 5k to 10k range? Do you not know what ranges are? Are you aware that with such a huge group you'll probably have a much tighter range of numbers than having 5 thousand people in between that kind of spread. It seems to me Buckshot is probably a troll at this point or is suffering some buyer's remorse and is in one of his defensive mechanism denying that he made a horrible purchase.

It's not a group entirely composed of people wanting to do zandro multiplay, lol. I never said it was. It's just a DOOM fan group. Many of which do, in fact, play DOOM multiplay. Probably some here that are even members. But not all. Maybe, probably not even most. But I do try to get many interested in playing it. I don't necessarily care what servers they play on, so long as they're playing.

No troll here, and I haven't made any purchase of anything recently that I regret. I'm not really advertising my servers as you so put it... rather I've created them for those in our doom group (and anyone else, here or anywhere for that matter) for community events and nightly plays. Everything I've told you is truth, whether you choose to beleive that or not, I guess thats upto you. I came here to defend VGP, who has helped me quite a bit, and I feel this entire thread has been pretty harsh on them. I just thought perhaps if folks heard both side of the story, then maybe that'd bring to light that the guys who run VGP aren't quite what people are making them out to be.

if you do care to check out the group if you have doubts, feel free:
facebook.com/groups/doomgame

You can find me there, as Admin Strunk.

[Ru5tK1ng]

I really don't see what the big deal is. If he wants to throw money away, he's free to do so because it's his money. After all, no one ever said gamers were smart with their purchases.

I'd say the services should be half of what he currently pays since $10 a month is a rip off compared to just using free services or running a server off your own toaster.