A change to Survival's behavior

[WaTaKiD]

Hi, in a recent Zandronum 3.0 alpha build, the Survival gamemode recieved a change in the way weapons, ammo, inventory items, etc are dealt with when a player has lost all their lives. The behavior we're used to, where if a player loses all their lives, they lose everything that they have and start from scratch upon reaching the next map. The new behavior now remembers everything you had at the time of your final death and restores it all to you upon reaching the next map.

On the plus side, the newer behavior is more convenient and not as discouraging. For example, playing an RPG mod where you have leveled up quite a bit and obtained some rare items. Say you lose all your lives, but there are still other living players who have a chance to beat the map and thus restore your levels and such. It's definitely nice to keep your things in a mod where enemies scale in difficulty so you're not left behind and outmatched.

On the other hand, the older behavior is more punishing and doesn't allow you to rely on others to save your levels and such for you. If you lose all your lives, you are done and will start all over the next map. So if you want to keep all of your stuff, you have to play to survive or else be at a disadvantage compared to those players who survived the previous map.

I personally prefer the old behavior and wouldn't mind the new behavior becoming an option for those who wish to use it.

Please feel free to discuss and share your thoughts.

Also for those interested, some more information/discussion can be found here and here.

[Marcaek]

The need to play carefully to survive is entirely the reason people prefer survival to the risk-free cooperative gamemode. The vast majority of players I have encountered over the years would prefer the current system to be preserved regardless of the new one becoming optional.

[Combinebobnt]

Old behavior: its called survival not pussy handhold coop. if u don't like dying then don't die

thanks for posting the ticket, don't want these shadow changes happening behind my back...

[The Toxic Avenger]

Have the new behavior as a flag and we'd be all set IMO.

[Ru5tK1ng]

So the new flag would be Survival Baby Edition? I don't even play survival and I know the change would be dumb as hell. Keep the old way as the default. If you are tired of dying and losing everything, play simple coop or get good.

[Razgriz]

It shouldn't be the new default behavior, that's stupid. You want survival but with an extra life, play with 2 instead of 1, or 4 instead of 3. There's no need to make something the default because you suck too much to stay alive.

[r4z0r]

Thats a really stupid idea i agree with whats already been said there already exists options and workarounds if you want survival-for-kids edition there is literally no need to force this behaviour why reinvent the wheel when theres nothing broken

[ARGENTVM]

What was wrong with survival that its default settings needed to be fundamentally ruined changed? Might as well have defaulted sv_fastweapons to 1 or 2 and skill to 0 while at it. Why stop there? Lets make it so the monsters stay dead when the round resets and implement a sv_slowmonsters flag in case those fireballs and demons are too difficult to dodge.

[Catastrophe]

The real problem here is sneaking in that change without making it clear in the OP.

[ForrestMarkX]

Use SV_Coop_LoseInventory, SV_Coop_LoseWeapons, and SV_Coop_LoseAmmo. Though this kinda screws you if you have more than 1 life

[mifu]

Based on stats (the server list really) it seems everyone enjoys the current behaviour in 2.1.2. Quite frankly this should be the default with the ability to change it if need be via a dmflag or gamemode or w/e.

This is just going to piss people off if this is left as a default. (I mean the new behaviour by the way)

[Dark-Assassin]

I prefer the vanilla method of losing everything when you die, regardless of lives. It's also why there is much more weapons placed throughout levels in multiplayer. But of course nobody would host let alone play on a server that hardcore.

[SyKoTiC]

I agree that the 2.1.2 version is much more based on survival than it is now. Adding an option should be obvious to remedy this, but what about at least keeping the guns, if not all then ssg,and lose all ammo except pistol(obviously). That way you are limited as much as a fresh start but can get back into it if you find ammo.

[Torr Samaho]

Alright, that is a very clear picture. I'll restore the old behavior as default and add an option that allows dead spectators to regain their inventory when being revived after a map change.

[Zalewa]

Are all those insults warranted? Apart from dead spectators keeping their inventory all other factors of survival are the same. The new behavior of not resetting the level is locked behind a cvar that is off by default.

[Fused]

I believe the whole point of this thread was to ask for people's opinion. It's not final. And yeah, the insults are uncalled for, so please just respond like a normal person should.

I personally like this idea, but it should definitely be a cvar, and not default behaviour. I can definitely think of some nice things you could do with this.

[Doomkid]

Glad it's going to be implemented as an optional thing. I'll never use it, but more options are always nice.

I personally would also like to see an option for "ZD survival" in that people who join a server partway through a map can join right away rather than waiting. If you die, you still can't rejoin until after the map is complete or everyone dies (even if you reconnect, just like in ZD), but it's cool not having to wait 15 minutes or whatever soon as you join a server.

EDIT: The flag could be called "Allow mid-round joining" or something. It's really a cool feature.

[Zalewa]

I'll restore the old behavior as default and add an option that allows dead spectators to regain their inventory when being revived after a map change.

Since it's my change that caused this debacle I should be the one to fix it. Unless you already have a ready solution, I'm available to make necessary amends.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Part of the reason why there was a backlash is because a design change such as this was close to being implemented based on your personal experience rather than gauging the community. If there is going to be an important change to something that many people play everyday (survival as is), it's better to ask for community input first rather than after the fact.

[Zakken]

I personally prefer the old behavior and wouldn't mind the new behavior becoming an option for those who wish to use it.

This sums up my thoughts on it pretty much. I believe the new behaviour would also be strongly beneficial for many mods too. Just be careful not to dispose of the old behaviour, as I'm sure people here have made it very aggressively clear.