GvH fair and balanced

[jdagenet]

Lms gas for that aenima

Oh is he complaining about the long match rounds with Creeper? Like it's a problem with the mod and not because people are irritated that they died? Bob has a great solution to solving that other than the holy grail of lms gas: don't die.

Chill, bro. It was just a meme i found on Facebook.

Waiting for a round to be over really doesn't bother me, although IMO doing something to speed up creeper hunts would be beneficial to increasing and retaining playercount. I think LMS gas should be included in the mod, but be turned off by default and hosts can do what they want with it.

I saw it on Facebook as well.
I suppose if it was optional it wouldn't be too big of a deal, I personally would never use it in my server because it doesn't happen often enough to consider it.

[Frits]

Bring back cold demise! The last GvH that was truly good.
NS was really crap and made me stop playing it. LOD is decent but CD was simply better. It has some good maps though and the impaler is pretty cool. The other classes I can do without.

Long creeper rounds never bothered me as a human, just aggressively hunt them and give them no rest. A creeper without stun balls is as good as dead.

Changes i'd like:
- Get rid of some crap maps like the boat map and the ice graveyard map. Keep most of the LoD maps.
- LoD jitter is pretty balanced more so than in CD. Only thing that bothers me is that if he misses and you get to close from behind (for a point blank shot) it'll still kill you.
- Keep things simple, we don't need 3 attacks on each gun. (Applies to LoD )
- Stop sjas abusing flydown for a huge speedboost
- Choke: Keep the cancel Blood ball from lod

[Ivan]

The biggest fix that should happen right now is the Choke's heal. It most of the time doesn't even heal you here, and I tried to argue with jdagenet here and he seems to think it's about the delay. Well, it's not. That's only a half a second (around that) delay. No reason I should never get healed for any damage I do.

The problem is that the A_GiveToTarget stuff can mess up when they are in pain states. This was fully resolved in Reckoning Hour (Yeah, nobody plays bla bla) and semi-resolved in LoD. A full fix requires simple ACS.

[Ænima]

Yeah A_GiveToTarget in a player's pain state can be unreliable sometimes. Just look at any mod with a "hit marker" (RGA, AOW, SST, GE64). Sometimes you don't get one when you're shooting someone, and other times you'll get one out of nowhere when someone shoots a player you previously shot.

Not sure why, since I always assumed that playerpawns consider their target to be the most recent player/monster to pain them.

[jdagenet]

The biggest fix that should happen right now is the Choke's heal. It most of the time doesn't even heal you here, and I tried to argue with jdagenet here and he seems to think it's about the delay. Well, it's not. That's only a half a second (around that) delay. No reason I should never get healed for any damage I do.

The problem is that the A_GiveToTarget stuff can mess up when they are in pain states. This was fully resolved in Reckoning Hour (Yeah, nobody plays bla bla) and semi-resolved in LoD. A full fix requires simple ACS.

I recreated the algorithm myself without A_GiveToTarget. That's not even used anywhere throughout the mod.

I think what's confusing you is the delay and you have to be pretty close to your enemy to actually be a candidate for the regen. There are no bugs going on. I tested the algorithm without the delay item and it works flawlessly when it should.

[Combinebobnt]

ignoring the bug fixing stuff (nice patches jmagnate, I'll be watching what I download now...), I see a lot of balance recommendations.

I have to ask because this is multiplayer and not singleplayer, have u guys actually played gvh since skulltag year 20XX? Like there has been pub almost every day on real cutman-certified gvh and not some offshoot. Maybe this will explain some of the recommendations that just get straight up trashed; players and stuff have to had changed since skulltag. From whatever I can remember in ST, I think ghouls win over humans a lot more now. Humans either have to stack the teams or really come together with teamwork to get the wins in, which might be a good thing. Either way, balancing something while its being played is always hard. Sometimes the right decisions aren't the ones that are liked by players either. Just take a look at how the community reacts to changes in any of the AAA moba fps whatevers, can be a tough job especially if you aren't good at balancing, lol.

Also some maps are TRASH: jdoorstep please don't be a passive admin and become enlightened

[Konda]

I have to ask because this is multiplayer and not singleplayer, have u guys actually played gvh since skulltag year 20XX?

Yes. GVH is one of the main things I've been playing in Zan for the past few years.

Like there has been pub almost every day on real cutman-certified gvh and not some offshoot.

Despite me playing GVH for so long, I haven't seen any "real cutman-certified gvh" in the past few years until recently. From where I'm standing, original GVH was pretty much dead by, 2012-2013 or something. It was kept alive throughout the years thanks to the different GVH spinoffs made by players. This could be because we're living in different time-zomes, though.

And forgive me if I got the wrong idea, but I can't help but feel that you're trying to dismiss opinions from people who haven't been playing the original GVH for a while, even if they've been playing some third party version of it. Excluding multiverse, the GVH spinoffs aren't that different from the original. Also, the "cutman-certified" GVH has been drifting away from the apparent most balanced version Cold Demise ever since v2. The entirety of v2 and early v3 were also "cutman-certified", and the Carthief-directed GVH was also "cutman-certified" since he entrusted the mod to Carthief. With all due respect to Cutman and his work, I don't think the words "cutman-certified" or "real gvh" hold that much value any longer.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not I completely missed the point of your questions, I think the changes in the GVH spinoffs should be given some consideration before being dismissed completely just for being spinoffs and not the original GVH. Changes regarding the original classes, that is. Some of those changes have been driven by the players' general experience with the original classes.

[Cutman]

I don't think the words "cutman-certified" or "real gvh" hold that much value any longer.

I agree, people will play what they want to play. I've rarely seen servers play the official GVH version over the past couple of years to be honest, and I do check out the server list quite often. GVH popularity was dwindling by the time I handed it over to Carthief and I chose him because there was no one else in my community who really cared about GVH anymore. I stopped announcing releases on my site and didn't even look at the changes he made when he released a new version.

But it was the version chosen for the Halloween FNF. If people go looking for the original/official version of GVH they will no doubt find Carthief's updates that apparently no one likes. It's a bit of a shame to leave it in the state it is in now. It can still be modded and expanded on later (which I'm sure it will be, this mod just won't die), which is why I would manly focus on the most classic/vanilla experience. If the spinoffs did anything amazing that makes GVH feel bad without it, you will have to tell me about it because I have very little experience with those mods.

[Marcaek]

Just to chime in real quick, we actually had meant to use v2b9 for FNF but there were bugs which forced us to use v3b6 instead, for whatever that's worth.

[Ivan]

The biggest fix that should happen right now is the Choke's heal. It most of the time doesn't even heal you here, and I tried to argue with jdagenet here and he seems to think it's about the delay. Well, it's not. That's only a half a second (around that) delay. No reason I should never get healed for any damage I do.

The problem is that the A_GiveToTarget stuff can mess up when they are in pain states. This was fully resolved in Reckoning Hour (Yeah, nobody plays bla bla) and semi-resolved in LoD. A full fix requires simple ACS.

I recreated the algorithm myself without A_GiveToTarget. That's not even used anywhere throughout the mod.

I think what's confusing you is the delay and you have to be pretty close to your enemy to actually be a candidate for the regen. There are no bugs going on. I tested the algorithm without the delay item and it works flawlessly when it should.

Where's this implementation? Was it in the patch2 file because if so that's not working. Your "algorithm" is a hack, and it's not a good one either. You're trying to use +SEEKERMISSILE in the hopes that an "explosive 0 tic projectile" will lock on to a close distance target. This is not going to work 99.9% of the time... Do you even realize it? Even for creeper (I see you're using it for whatever reason for creeper too...) is dangerous. I'm willing to fix this problem using more "sane" methods (yeah your ACS code is horrendous to look at too, not because of bad indentation but simply due to redundant logic involved) if you want.

[Razgriz]

There's a good reason why even people who come from multi say 2b9 is better, or how 2b9 is the best version around. If you want to put things into perspective about what other versions did to make GvH better, sit on this for a while: what was it about those versions that made people not want to consider it better than 2b9? If they were suppose to be a successful in succeeding 2b9 and ct's version, why are the polls and the GvH playerbase content with playing and fixing things in 2b9 instead of adding on mostly? Why aren't they saying "lets play those other versions to try them out again?"

At the moment there seems to be only a few things to fix which don't include the sjas flyup/down mechanic (because its not broken). There's only a few map fixes in order and otherwise Whats running on the painkiller server is pretty much as good as its gonna get.

[Catastrophe]

There's a good reason why even people who come from multi say 2b9 is better, or how 2b9 is the best version around. If you want to put things into perspective about what other versions did to make GvH better, sit on this for a while: what was it about those versions that made people not want to consider it better than 2b9? If they were suppose to be a successful in succeeding 2b9 and ct's version, why are the polls and the GvH playerbase content with playing and fixing things in 2b9 instead of adding on mostly? Why aren't they saying "lets play those other versions to try them out again?"

At the moment there seems to be only a few things to fix which don't include the sjas flyup/down mechanic (because its not broken). There's only a few map fixes in order and otherwise Whats running on the painkiller server is pretty much as good as its gonna get.

To be fair, most of the people who play multiverse are pretty much randoms that don't actively participate in the forums. Plus there's still a large amount of players who prefer multiverse over any other iteration for whatever reason. Asking yourself why v2b9 is better over multi isn't a good argument.

[jdagenet]

The biggest fix that should happen right now is the Choke's heal. It most of the time doesn't even heal you here, and I tried to argue with jdagenet here and he seems to think it's about the delay. Well, it's not. That's only a half a second (around that) delay. No reason I should never get healed for any damage I do.

The problem is that the A_GiveToTarget stuff can mess up when they are in pain states. This was fully resolved in Reckoning Hour (Yeah, nobody plays bla bla) and semi-resolved in LoD. A full fix requires simple ACS.

I recreated the algorithm myself without A_GiveToTarget. That's not even used anywhere throughout the mod.

I think what's confusing you is the delay and you have to be pretty close to your enemy to actually be a candidate for the regen. There are no bugs going on. I tested the algorithm without the delay item and it works flawlessly when it should.

Where's this implementation? Was it in the patch2 file because if so that's not working. Your "algorithm" is a hack, and it's not a good one either. You're trying to use +SEEKERMISSILE in the hopes that an "explosive 0 tic projectile" will lock on to a close distance target. This is not going to work 99.9% of the time... Do you even realize it? Even for creeper (I see you're using it for whatever reason for creeper too...) is dangerous. I'm willing to fix this problem using more "sane" methods (yeah your ACS code is horrendous to look at too, not because of bad indentation but simply due to redundant logic involved) if you want.

I'm not exactly sure why it's so hard to convince you but If you wish to progress forward on this topic we can chat in Teamspeak or PM's. There's no sense in overhauling this thread just because you believe that some things don't work.

[Combinebobnt]

I like the overhauling the thread idea. Jdognet today i saw u bite ppl as choke and you healed when you were close, but when u barely grazed them I didn't see an increase. Perhaps its time for real closed testing instead of some pub He said She said ?

EDIT ^ apparently intended behavior ok sorry ivan

[Razgriz]

To be fair, most of the people who play multiverse are pretty much randoms that don't actively participate in the forums. Plus there's still a large amount of players who prefer multiverse over any other iteration for whatever reason. Asking yourself why v2b9 is better over multi isn't a good argument.

In the servers they say Multiverse sucks ass but they play because its the only thing up at that time, we've cleared out a Multiverse server several times, even though that server had x2 or x3 members than the just-starting 2b9 server. The exact same players will go to 2b9 when it's starting up/ongoing, hm I wonder why. I've been in almost every GvH 2b9 server since it's comeback recently and it just lives for hours, people will even return after leaving an hour or two and stay even longer.

Also and the fact that they're randoms doesn't mean what they say has little weight since they are the active GvH playerbase, though I think them leaving the MV server to go to the 2b9 says it all.

Also poor Ivan Ghouls vs RH?

[Ru5tK1ng]

The slight engineer buff seems to be pretty good at making that class viable. GJ

[r4z0r]

The slight engineer buff seems to be pretty good at making that class viable. GJ

Seeing as I wasn't around, what buffs did he receive?

[Combinebobnt]

++dmg you can get more than 1 frag with him now

[Ivan]

Hidden patches hidden changes... :(

[jdagenet]

Gry and I have been discussing a few of the problem maps that exist in rotation and what could be done to help resolve gameplay issues in these maps. Some slight layout changes were applied to the notable bottle-neck maps in hopes of creating more level gameplay and the v2b9 server is now using these maps. I also replaced White Out with the newer version that is used in v3 and up (sorry Mobius).
The new maps have only been tested publicly for a short while, but from what I saw I didn't see anything negative come from the changes.