GvH fair and balanced

[Ivan]

Maybe throw in some bonuses like the option to turn on LMS stall prevention and add some modern Zandronum features that didn't exist back then. Not sure how popular it would be (I thought everyone would be sick of it by now) but at least it would exist for when people feel like playing it again.

I am fully against this idea for GVH as certain classes were intended with health disparities compared to others might prove to be an overwhelming disadvantage for say creepers. The spirit of an intense and long game shouldn't be rushed and I don't believe anyone had a problem with it last night (Rust and I spent more than 8 minutes actively trying to kill each other).

That can be solved by constantly taking a % of the player's maximum health away rather than a constant value.

Wait what? What do you mean by "taking a % of the players maximum health away"? Do you mean to say, for example, take 5 health points away from every alive person every 2 minutes that the game lasts? I'm just not understanding your concept.

Nice example that just skips what I provided. I said a "% value" not a "constant value" like you provided, 5. Isn't it what all lms stall prevention things do? Or is that the one where the map fills with poison clouds? Same thing either way and potentially worse in GvH as maps have huge asymmetry.

[jdagenet]

I would be all for the idea of having a GvH build that was considered "the norm" for all future hostings.
As Mobius mentioned, the v2b9 server was actively competing with Megaman, peaking out at 32 players. These kind of turn outs just don't happen anymore in the community so the desire to play the mod is still there, I think all of the not-so-good reincarnations really killed the scene of GvH. Quite frankly, has there really been a reincarnation that was considered good enough to make a positive mark in GvH?

[Ivan]

I would be all for the idea of having a GvH build that was considered "the norm" for all future hostings.
As Mobius mentioned, the v2b9 server was actively competing with Megaman, peaking out at 32 players. These kind of turn outs just don't happen anymore in the community so the desire to play the mod is still there, I think all of the not-so-good reincarnations really killed the scene of GvH. Quite frankly, has there really been a reincarnation that was considered good enough to make a positive mark in GvH?

Actually, GvH was dying before other addons came out. Frankly, those extended the lifetime of it a short while. None of the addons really killed GvH...

I think the big reason in the decline for GvH was that there simply were no servers hosting old GvH. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Cutman]

Maybe throw in some bonuses like the option to turn on LMS stall prevention and add some modern Zandronum features that didn't exist back then. Not sure how popular it would be (I thought everyone would be sick of it by now) but at least it would exist for when people feel like playing it again.

I am fully against this idea for GVH as certain classes were intended with health disparities compared to others might prove to be an overwhelming disadvantage for say creepers. The spirit of an intense and long game shouldn't be rushed and I don't believe anyone had a problem with it last night (Rust and I spent more than 8 minutes actively trying to kill each other).

I completely agree, some of my most fun moments in Skulltag were down to a GVH 1v1 to decide the game with the finale music playing in the background. But not all players have the patience for it. Earlier today I joined and saw a lot of people getting bored of waiting around and leaving if there was a drawn out battle between a sneaky creeper and a bunch of humans in a big map. The LMS gas mod is quite flexible and you can customize how quickly the radius shrinks and how long before it is spawned, it would have been something I would have at least wanted to try back in the day if it existed. Just to see if people preferred limited match times.

I could just be talking out my bum though since I see the server is still up and populated with just standard TLMS rules

[Combinebobnt]

dont watch play

[Mobius]

I would be all for the idea of having a GvH build that was considered "the norm" for all future hostings.
As Mobius mentioned, the v2b9 server was actively competing with Megaman, peaking out at 32 players. These kind of turn outs just don't happen anymore in the community so the desire to play the mod is still there, I think all of the not-so-good reincarnations really killed the scene of GvH. Quite frankly, has there really been a reincarnation that was considered good enough to make a positive mark in GvH?

Actually, GvH was dying before other addons came out. Frankly, those extended the lifetime of it a short while. None of the addons really killed GvH...

I think the big reason in the decline for GvH was that there simply were no servers hosting old GvH. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

It was because Cutman gave it to Carthief to work on Megaman so all the focus rightfully went there. I was around during the final days of Cold Demise's life cycle and saw how it was handed over to previous owners such as Carthief and the DRDTeam (I was even on the DRD team for GVH for like one post). The adons just meme'd GVH into some weird AOW abomination such as Nordic Saga, Legacy of Darkness, and Multiverse which only made it a commercial brand to sell bad classes. It was like the days when class base mods were trending cause of GVH popularity and then GVH finally became the vehicle to showcase ideas no one cared for in 2009.

completely agree, some of my most fun moments in Skulltag were down to a GVH 1v1 to decide the game with the finale music playing in the background. But not all players have the patience for it. Earlier today I joined and saw a lot of people getting bored of waiting around and leaving if there was a drawn out battle between a sneaky creeper and a bunch of humans in a big map. The LMS gas mod is quite flexible and you can customize how quickly the radius shrinks and how long before it is spawned, it would have been something I would have at least wanted to try back in the day if it existed. Just to see if people preferred limited match times.

I could just be talking out my bum though since I see the server is still up and populated with just standard TLMS rules

Well from what we have been experiencing cause of the surge of GVH activity no one seems to mind or care. It is also map dependent as well, and those who do leave are a very fringe minority. GVH wasn't exactly designed for TLMS timelimits like say Internal Conflict which has a sudden death power boost of extreme proportions to accelerate matches. I guess hosting a separate wad for it won't hurt but I have a distinct feeling no one will care for it.

[JustAPlayer]

I would be all for the idea of having a GvH build that was considered "the norm" for all future hostings.
As Mobius mentioned, the v2b9 server was actively competing with Megaman, peaking out at 32 players. These kind of turn outs just don't happen anymore in the community so the desire to play the mod is still there, I think all of the not-so-good reincarnations really killed the scene of GvH. Quite frankly, has there really been a reincarnation that was considered good enough to make a positive mark in GvH?

Actually, GvH was dying before other addons came out. Frankly, those extended the lifetime of it a short while. None of the addons really killed GvH...

I think the big reason in the decline for GvH was that there simply were no servers hosting old GvH. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

It was because Cutman gave it to Carthief to work on Megaman so all the focus rightfully went there. I was around during the final days of Cold Demise's life cycle and saw how it was handed over to previous owners such as Carthief and the DRDTeam (I was even on the DRD team for GVH for like one post). The adons just meme'd GVH into some weird AOW abomination such as Nordic Saga, Legacy of Darkness, and Multiverse which only made it a commercial brand to sell bad classes. It was like the days when class base mods were trending cause of GVH popularity and then GVH finally became the vehicle to showcase ideas no one cared for in 2009.

completely agree, some of my most fun moments in Skulltag were down to a GVH 1v1 to decide the game with the finale music playing in the background. But not all players have the patience for it. Earlier today I joined and saw a lot of people getting bored of waiting around and leaving if there was a drawn out battle between a sneaky creeper and a bunch of humans in a big map. The LMS gas mod is quite flexible and you can customize how quickly the radius shrinks and how long before it is spawned, it would have been something I would have at least wanted to try back in the day if it existed. Just to see if people preferred limited match times.

I could just be talking out my bum though since I see the server is still up and populated with just standard TLMS rules

Well from what we have been experiencing cause of the surge of GVH activity no one seems to mind or care. It is also map dependent as well, and those who do leave are a very fringe minority. GVH wasn't exactly designed for TLMS timelimits like say Internal Conflict which has a sudden death power boost of extreme proportions to accelerate matches. I guess hosting a separate wad for it won't hurt but I have a distinct feeling no one will care for it.

Want to know a really bad addon which probably could've killed GvH had it not stopped being made or hosted, Eternal Hatred, It was the slowest one and humans were downgraded so much and ghouls were buffed, although it did bring cool new ideas like the Dark arrows and Thunder arrows, because lightning arrows were changed to wind arrows and you sacrificed some health to get thunder arrows which had the rail gun, but had a exploding radius on the ground that was small but did decent damage, and dark arrows which were like amped ice arrows that did a shit ton of damage to certain ghouls but took more hp. Marine was downgraded in shooting speed and grenade speed, but overall did little more damage, wasted opportunity that couldve been good but was less balanced then Multiverse imo

[DTDsphere]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

[Marcaek]

damn that reminded me this exists https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1563

links are dead, but the files are all on TSPG

[Razgriz]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

These are all terrible ideas, I'm sorry but after playing for about 3 days this is more balanced than anyone thinks. What makes it hard to play is the maps. Some are decent but there are some maps ruined by too much darkness in 90% of the map, poor team starts, and some just bad design.

I also want to say most of the maps might as well not be touched since they're classic now, and altering them would encourage people to not play the maps anymore. Better off with creating new maps or adding map packs (preferably with proper team starts).

[jdagenet]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

These are all terrible ideas, I'm sorry but after playing for about 3 days this is more balanced than anyone thinks. What makes it hard to play is the maps. Some are decent but there are some maps ruined by too much darkness in 90% of the map, poor team starts, and some just bad design.

I also want to say most of the maps might as well not be touched since they're classic now, and altering them would encourage people to not play the maps anymore. Better off with creating new maps or adding map packs (preferably with proper team starts).

I agree. All of these points have never been brought up before until now. I think class-wise, Cold Demise yields the most balance. I did make two class changes to my v2b9 server that I feel had to be done (you can thank me for the awesome 20mb patch), but for the most part, Cold Demise is the most acceptable in terms of balance and fun.

As far as the maps go, I think most of them suffer from one trait and that is they either favor one of the two teams (that is considering the teams are even from the start). Otherwise, I often see games reaching the 4 v 4 tie breaker round and that tells me that the maps and classes can easily be played for all skill sets so I can't say for sure that any positive results would come from those changes that you provided, though based on my experience in the mod, I'm going to say that they would only hurt the gameplay.

[Catastrophe]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

These are really bad ideas. Please don't; all of them are fine except for just sjas having unrestricted fly/swim up/down speed.

[Ivan]

Someone here said it on this thread (probably Konda), a fusion of classic and LoD changes to the classic classes might be a nice thing to have actually. Especially the changes that the addons introduced. The low but regenerating fuel on Cyborg is cool for example. Not to mention the old gvh still has some pretty silly bugs (GB Trap Bug that's misleading...). At least fixes to those could improve gameplay. Oh and, weapon switch is messed up on GB too...

[r4z0r]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

Most of these changes are pretty bad but I would agree with reducing the number of grenades that marine has. Most of the time, I end up either ending the game with 7 unused grenades or trying so hard to use them that i throw them into every nook and cranny just looking for a purpose to use them. 5 sounds like a much better number or even better, have it so the number of grenades scales up with the number of ghouls.

[Razgriz]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

These are all terrible ideas, I'm sorry but after playing for about 3 days this is more balanced than anyone thinks. What makes it hard to play is the maps. Some are decent but there are some maps ruined by too much darkness in 90% of the map, poor team starts, and some just bad design.

I also want to say most of the maps might as well not be touched since they're classic now, and altering them would encourage people to not play the maps anymore. Better off with creating new maps or adding map packs (preferably with proper team starts).

I agree. All of these points have never been brought up before until now. I think class-wise, Cold Demise yields the most balance. I did make two class changes to my v2b9 server that I feel had to be done (you can thank me for the awesome 20mb patch), but for the most part, Cold Demise is the most acceptable in terms of balance and fun.

As far as the maps go, I think most of them suffer from one trait and that is they either favor one of the two teams (that is considering the teams are even from the start). Otherwise, I often see games reaching the 4 v 4 tie breaker round and that tells me that the maps and classes can easily be played for all skill sets so I can't say for sure that any positive results would come from those changes that you provided, though based on my experience in the mod, I'm going to say that they would only hurt the gameplay.

At least from what I got from playing, most of the maps play out one sided when humans are thrown into one small indoor area while all the ghouls are outside ready to surround. It's worse when the distance between where all the humans spawn at and where the ghouls spawn at is small because it means they get surrounded and destroyed by frosts alt fire, while the worst offender is the forest map since you can barely defend yourself to begin with as a human.

Also don't listen to Razor he barely found out what GvH was yesterday and barely found doom 2 weeks ago he's fresh memer still.

[Mobius]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic".

I'd be up for it.

Some things that I would personally change.

• The marine spawning with too many grenades annoyed me. 10 is just ridiculous. I say 5 would be better.
• I would also make all the humans run at the same speed. There seems to be absolutely no point for them to have different running speeds, all it did was make the hunter too fast and the cyborg too slow.
• Make the Jitterskull eyes change colour instead of its skull to stop black jitterskull hiding in the darkness cheapness.
• Force air acceleration off.
• Make the sjas a touch slower now that air acceleration is forced off.
• Add creeper ball "rocket" jumping (yes that is STILL on my mind).

What is really sad is that you have been soliciting these ideas for 6 years and they are as bad as I remember them.

Marines need 10 grenades. Their shotgun can maybe do a SLIIIGHHHTT change, but grandes bounce off even ghouls making 5 literally useless. 10 is fine and has always been fine.
Humans all at the same speed will mean what exactly? Speed of who? All hunter speed? Sjas now can never win. All Cyborg speed? Humans lose. Don't like balance?
How about using your eyes for Jitter? Ghouls need to hide in the dark cause they get outclassed by human range warfare.. and because they are ghouls rofl duh.
What is with you and Cata and your insatiable sjas speed meme? Sjas going up and down may make sjas marginally faster than usual but it doesn't matter if you can't hit anyone and there's no where to hide. Humans can still outrun you (Hunter) or turn-around and shoot you (Marine, Ghostbuster, Cyborg, pretty much all of them). Sjas having some sort of advantage help ghouls launch offensives they wouldn't otherwise (GVH21, GVH22, GVH30).
Creeper rocketball jump is just you wanting to rocket jump in an inappropriate wad. It would make Creeper harder to kill since he'll access areas he couldn't without jumping and accelerate his base speed making him much more dangerous (creepers already outlive most ghouls during end games).

How about we just fix what is broken and add new maps. Cold Demise was the most balance for a reason and that's because a bunch of nonsense wasn't tossed in there unless it was Cutman's nonsense which worked out for the best (even though he had to patch it a few times after its initial release).

[Ru5tK1ng]

If it's something people want back badly maybe it would be worth making a "GVH Classic". Basically make it the same as Cold Demise (keep Santa as the Engineer), clean up my awful code, remove random damage, make some balance changes that people are mostly positive towards from the newer GVH expansions and gut all the maps no one likes (there's a lot of them). Maybe throw in some bonuses like the option to turn on LMS stall prevention and add some modern Zandronum features that didn't exist back then. Not sure how popular it would be (I thought everyone would be sick of it by now) but at least it would exist for when people feel like playing it again.

Sounds like a good idea: GvH: Final Conflict when?

Also I'm not sure, but wasn't Santa just meant as a placeholder before it became a (bad) meme? Never understood to fanfare for it. As others have said, it would probably be cool to pick and choose a few design changes from LOD.

[Cutman]

Cold Demise was coming out near the holidays, pretty much the only reason. I guess I didn't think ahead back then because shortly after I was getting nagged to change it (rightfully so).

[Ru5tK1ng]

Not bad for a Monday evening:

[Ivan]

Not bad for a Monday evening:

That's quite nice, honestly it feels better than seeing that stupid doom mod with shit ton of addons like LCA. :)