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Mobius
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#1

Post by Mobius » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:24 pm

This topic is to openly discuss a point of contention presented in yesterday's meeting. For those who didn't attend or haven't read fully then here is a link for you. The purpose of this thread is to deeply deliberate and elucidate a concern about Zandronum's overall image and reputation outside of our own forum to other Doom related communities and, if applicable, come to a solution. I was not satisfied with the answers given by Terminus and prefer something more perspicuous, and felt haste from Dynamo, Decay, and others may have detracted perhaps critical information we could ascertain; however, a single contingent remains indisputable and that a large percentage of YOU were not there to discuss your take on this matter. We, as a community, can not solely depend on or act on central forces no matter how active they are in moving our community as we have in the past. We cannot ameliorate the experience for you if there is a problem. YOU must actively get your shit together and do it yourself. We know MANY of you can care even less and just play your doom game, but external/internal politics exist whether you want them to or not and YOU have deeply expressed -- incognito -- your replete grievances despite not making them clear when an exact opportunity presents itself. So as a person who is naturally confrontational I am giving you a public podium to present your case and speak up.

Here is the main bullet-points of our "dilemma" proposed by "external" voices about Zandronum. Keep in mind this is a purely ABSTRACT thread so keep local or micro incidences to yourself such as having some person bother you in a server this week or some shit no one cares about. This is much more important so let's talk about our abstract WHOLE of who or what we represent. Here's the list:
  • Zandronum looks bad
  • Plays nothing but mods
  • The community's mental state is alarming compared to other doom communities
  • Not enough mod/develop for Zandronum
  • Zandronum stimulates an emotional response which repels users
  • "My reflexes are too shot for multiplayer Doom, and the community has been very good in letting me know that I'm a lesser person because of it. There are holes I will happily not muddy myself in."
It's "evident" that Zandronum and how it carries particular events or behaviors dissuades people from participating to some capacity, and further rumors concerning VIP users browsing our boards by dubious sources somehow predicates a "social" negativity on our part. The state of "crisis" brought up during the meeting correlates our "stagnate" multiplayer activity with our domestic conduct, but offer no evidence to support this theory as speculation circulates about idgames having surges of content or activity. Thus, it is hard to express whether it's Zandronum's lack of update causing concern or perhaps WE have been off putting in a literal sense or maybe just concurrent of personal issues with development. I created this thread to challenge the more cavalier propositions to cite definitive facts before we decide to solve for our image problem if any. This is NOT a thread for Terminus to address, but may reply if he feels it is necessary. I repeat: This IS for EVERYONE to address and I am shooting for our shadow-brokers who have discrepancies to issue but not sought proper representation. This is for your every-day player who can think a bit more objectively and can articulate a known pattern of our collective culture. You cannot be the same people who have concerns but never go out of your way to speak upon them during a crucial public assembly. I want you to not cower behind many PMs to express how "right" a position is. This isn't a thread for petty grudges either, and if you feel this is a non-issue than say so as I think it is a non-issue as well.

You do not have to reply immediately. The chat proves that spontaneous and reactionary deliberation doesn't truly articulate or even allows additional information to present itself when it does come to light. You may maul over your replies much more thoughtfully in a post since you can take the time to reply unlike a chat discussion with 900 words per minute is a line between being read or being ignored. Think carefully.
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dewsome: do you think you're somehow special? i spent years arguing with nostar, jenova, mobius
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Re: Public image

#2

Post by Ivan » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:09 pm

How to fix reputation:

1) Make people test more builds, put them on servers monthly or so.
2) Advertise mods properly.
3) Make better mods pls ty.
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
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Re: Public image

#3

Post by Marcaek » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:10 pm

All things you should start doing ASAP mr DnD & RH

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Re: Public image

#4

Post by Ivan » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:13 pm

Marcaek wrote:All things you should start doing ASAP mr DnD & RH
DnD is a great mod and RH's value will never be known, it's an artistic project. Maybe in 10 years it'll be gold.

Why don't you fix boring fnf, it's terrible.
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=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
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Re: Public image

#5

Post by Marcaek » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:15 pm

why don't you mr never contributes?

finish teambalancer

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Ivan
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Re: Public image

#6

Post by Ivan » Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:17 pm

Marcaek wrote:why don't you mr never contributes?

finish teambalancer
I contribute but you keep putting old crap anyway so no point.

Also teambalancer is there you change 2 lines it works idk, take it from source of the golden treasure RH.
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
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Re: Public image

#7

Post by Combinebobnt » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:02 pm

hey noobs try attacking ideas and not identities. maybe this thread could actually stay on topic unlike that pitiful excuse of a discussion yesterday
Mobius wrote:
  • Zandronum looks bad
  • Plays nothing but mods
  • The community's mental state is alarming compared to other doom communities
  • Not enough mod/develop for Zandronum
  • Zandronum stimulates an emotional response which repels users
  • "My reflexes are too shot for multiplayer Doom, and the community has been very good in letting me know that I'm a lesser person because of it. There are holes I will happily not muddy myself in."
  • What doom community doesn't have some sort bad image, really? Don't ever open the general discussion in doomworld, I've seen zdoom and it's devs talked about as snarky anti-multiplayer mod lovers, zdaemon requires some basic spanish skills, and poor odamex.
  • Hell yea. How is this a disadvantage? Nobody likes vanilla anyway, whens the last time anyone played odamex or duel40 with every compat setting on? Also we have brutal doom, literally the most popular doom wad in the world. gg
  • Point 1 again, although things have improved since skulltag.
  • I'm trying :cry:
  • What does this even mean. The crybaby emotional ppl I've seen were reactionary attention whores that were literally told that nobody wanted them lol. They can remain playing irc instead of the game (these people probably don't even play singleplayer!)
  • Yea that's called competition. Coop and survival servers outnumber pvp gamemodes so bad it's not funny. They can try one of those servers next time and maybe grow a pair eventually for the harsh competitive side of zandronum. Literally nothing can be done about people being competitive.
Ivan actually has the concrete solution among his shitty posts (trying to compete with me? help). 3.0 is going to make 2.0's release look like a joke and that will increase modding too due to zdoom features/bugfixes. Yep, that's literally the most solid problem solver there is, 3.0. Whatever else seems to be some advertisement marketing safe-zone bs that I could care less about. Zandronum facebook/steam/youtube is dead, oops.

Here's the fun counterargument that probably appears everytime: Who from this 'oppressed' and outsider crowd is actually worth getting to come here? You know people like to bitch because it's fun, some of those people would never bother installing zandronum even if you paid them to. Singleplayer numbers obliterate multiplayer anyway, although brutal doom helps balance that out lol. Many many of the servers are people just wanting to play brutal doom or whatever mod with their friends, something that whatever friendzone marketing campaign won't even cater to, but guess what, 3.0 will by allowing these mods to exist in multiplayer in the first place. Personal time wow: I literally installed skulltag because I saw a video of the bfg10k, features = players (have fun with that equation a3). Poor zandronum youtube page again...

Speaking even more on the my little friendship don't hurt my feelings today advertising, I have something already proven effective and probably better than some propaganda mindshaping bullshit. Just join a server and play and then people show up holy shit magic. That's another math equation: people playing = more people playing. If people are playing something then other people will want to play. Proofs? Check the last like 20 event threads on doomworld (any port), people post all the time that they would 'love to show up and play'. People that aren't multiplayer regulars W_O_W! Poor zandronum youtube thread rofl... (yo someone give teslastormx that channel or something PLEASE maintain it)

Oh yea doom 4 looked extremely untapped like nobody even tried to show there were 3 dooms before it lol.
Last edited by Combinebobnt on Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Public image

#8

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:03 pm

You can't really do anything about pleasing people who don't care for Zandronum. There's always going to be people who don't like Zandronum, Zdaemon, odamex, Doomworld, Zdoom, /vr or any other facet of the community. Everyone' s going to like what they like and hate what they don't. Trying to appease everyone is a waste of time and honestly, ST has been shit on since many years back and it is just one of those things that won't change in the community. Most of the people who play Zan don't give a damn what random person says on a twitter or irc forum.

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Re: Public image

#9

Post by Dynamo » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:49 pm

Combinebobnt wrote:Doom is built on stealing anyway. Just look at dwango and any wad ever that uses a sprite. At least crediting sources is catching on now. 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.' People have straight out stolen from mspd (wow) and I gave not a single shit. Try the same?
This needs to be written in the constitution of every nation on earth. Finally someone who understands how it is.

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Re: Public image

#10

Post by fr blood » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:52 pm

Zandronum doesn't get enought new mods with a unique gameplay, to begin with I guess that maybe around 20% of people here are able to make an entire project, but even if you manage to finish your project offline(DECORATE/ACS/MAPS) well you will have to test it again online and here a big mess will begin(including client/server stuff, and especially BUGS which happen only online) we all know that the team is trying fix the maximum amount of them and making new alphas/versions but it takes a lot of time and a modder could easily lose patient and give up instead of waiting then switch for G/Zdoom which got better codes and avoid the online bug part. Another problem is when you work so hardly on your mode and try to reach your perfect gameplay then after becoming famous your work can easily be raped by a addons which consist in most of the times in copy-past, here people will say "Man addons are keeping the mode alive" and they are wrong, if the author keep updating his project people will still play it because new stuff attract them. For example the 1st time I made Complex Doom Invasion(fell free to see that projet as an addon or a mappack), the project had only a single map and the gameplay was damn hard(1st alpha lol) but somehow I managed to get a 32/32 server in less than 1 hour. Why? Because people were attracted by that new thing they never see before. Another important stuff here was about new maps, in these days most of the modes are focused on gameplay and people here already played most of the mappack so yeah with the time they get quickly bored and leave, it's like if you finish the campaign of a normal game.

The coop community has changed I'm pretty sure about that. I will take the example of Complex Doom when it was first done it was famous and then as every famous wad the addons started to infect it, they started with HEM which was quicly abandonned because making the gameplay too hard, and then came LCA which also destroyed the balance, but somehow the players liked it and so the mess started with all the other addons. The gameplay became too easy and there were 2 kind of people, good/medium coop players who disliked it because too easy + gameplay killed and bad/new players who liked it beause they could get good items easily(I'm talking in general here, there are for sure some exceptions). And this is how "Complex" Doom(yeah because with all these addons it's no more complex) became very popular in survival and it attracted new players which started direcly the Survival instead of the Coop and then they started to ask for mapvote each time they were dead and this is how all the mess started.

For the PvP part well the problem is totally different, in CTF for example we've got plenty of projects with new maps, but no one is trying to change the gameplay because people doesn't want it. Even if some popular modes managed to make it like GvH/Aow/Zdw/.... but here again most of them got killed by addons and author gave up.

I'm sure that I missed some subjects, but anyway Zandronum 3.0 is the hope because it will bring new modes and even if it takes 1 more year I don't mind waiting if it is to get a stable version with a minimum amount of bugs. Also what about a way to secure the ressources of a mode, I know that it is possible for ACS and it would be cool for other ressources too.

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Re: Public image

#11

Post by Catastrophe » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:41 pm

Zandronum looks bad - Not really much you can do here. There are people who will eternally hate Zandro even for the slightest reasons and keep echoing it to others. Fuck them. Community-wise it's the best it's been in a long time.

Plays nothing but mods - No incentive to play vanilla. Not enough people playing, etc etc.

The community's mental state is alarming compared to other doom communities - Forums been pretty docile lately. Not much clan drama. Dunno, play on better servers?

Not enough mod/develop for Zandronum - Ok there are tons of mods. I'm guessing the main complaint here there is not enough of a variance of mods. Ie the survival scene is pretty much Complex Doom. Personally I stopped because there's just no more incentive for me, and I'm not saying that I need rewards for modding, it's just doing it after a while just tires me, and im sure others, out. Plus knowing someone is gonna make a shitty addon for your mod eventually and cancerize it is quite demotivating.

Zandronum stimulates an emotional response which repels users - Yeah pretty much.

"My reflexes are too shot for multiplayer Doom, and the community has been very good in letting me know that I'm a lesser person because of it. There are holes I will happily not muddy myself in." - This only applies if you're talking about competitive doom, if you can't play well you really shouldn't be talking. But otherwise no not really.

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Re: Public image

#12

Post by ibm5155 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:07 pm

Ivan wrote:How to fix reputation:
1) Make people test more builds, put them on servers monthly or so.
That's a good point, people just tend to test their mods when a new version is released, and then they discover that almost half of their Work doesn't work anymore (by using old skulltag hacks or the "if compiled then it's ok")
Ivan wrote: 3) Make better mods pls ty.
This reminds me of that unoficial zombie horde map with a 100mb wave music, and the rest of the map was 1mb ;--;

And also the other topics:

Plays nothing but mods
o Yes, for vanilla I just use the original vanilla with a classic hardware, or, the latest gzdoom with their perfect palette shader.

The community's mental state is alarming compared to other doom communities.
o Indeed (maybe because almost all multiplayer like games tend to have these type of users?), but I only talk by zdoom, I belive doomworld is like zandronum in term of dramas.


Not enough mod/develop for Zandronum
o you only focus on zandronum if you really want to make your mod more multiplayer friendly, if not, gzdoom is there with years ahead features.
(but still, just check the servers, sometimes people tend to host new mods there without making a new thread here)
I'm going to take my example here, I wanted to make my spooky house mod compatible with zandronum, but there are SO many things that arent supported by it that I'll just wait for zandronum 4.0 to port it.
(This reminds me of my monsters from cursed maze that I ported to zandronum 1.0, stuff that required 20 lines of code with gzdoom resulted in 250 lines in decorate + 200 lines with acs D: )
AT least, Total Chaos is still compatible with zandronum (at the cost of a huge performance drop with the visual hacks)
Projects
Cursed Maze: DONE, V2.0
Zombie Horde - ZM09 map update: [3/15/13]
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Re: Public image

#13

Post by Ænima » Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:42 am

I missed the big meeting because I was at work. but basically if I was there, I would have said the following:

  • Screw our "image".
    It's not like we're selling a product or running for government office. Everybody is here for their own reasons. Those who stay and integrate themselves into the community beyond casual play usually end up contributing in a positive way, from what I've witnessed. It's just that those kinds of newcomers are getting rarer and rarer nowadays. Doom is 22 years old, just accept it.
  • Screw any attempts at outreach or advertising.
    We don't need to pander to Youtubers and Steamfags. If they wanna come here to play Brutal Doom or Megaman and nothing else, that's perfectly fine. But nobody here wants a flood of normies, assuming we'd get so much as even 10 new players from advertising on other sites.
  • Screw censorship.
    Nobody should ban shitty addons. Yeah, the flood of Complex, Brutal, and ZH addons is pretty retarded. But you know what's even more retarded? The authors getting mad about it. Like honestly, you're mad about plebs butchering your "intended" gameplay experience to suit their unrefined tastes when YOU are the one who wanted to give them an original experience to begin with? These are the most pretentious kinds of mod authors. You cannot control everyone. They're not undoing your hard work. If anyone made an addon for any of my mods that became more popular than the mod itself I'd have no problems with it. I would just carry on playing and releasing my mod. Which leads me to my next point ...
  • If you're complaining about your mod for Doom2 not getting 8+ players in a server at all times in 2016 then you're modding for the wrong reasons.
    I remember the good old days when you could pull a mod or small map set out of your ass and it would get a decent amount of players for a few months simply because it was new and exciting. Now, we have a new generation of post-HardDoom-era players who have a narrow comfort zone of "pair replacer-mod X with 10-year-old megawad Y and play it on Survival ad nauseum" and the rest of us just have to accept it. It shouldn't discourage you from modding. You should mod for your OWN enjoyment, first and foremost.

    I make mods and host them. On a good weekend, I can get anywhere from 4 to 16 players in my server at one time, and have a blast for a few hours. And I know I have a loyal following of at least 8 people that play my mods offline or singleplayer at least once a week. That's all the satisfaction I need, really. As long as I know that I'm making something that me and a handful of other people really honestly appreciate, I'm happy.
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Re: Public image

#14

Post by Marcaek » Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:49 am

yeah we dont need a flood of (((normies))) huh aenima get out of my zanzan REEEEEEEEEEEE

I don't give a fuck about your resentment of the greater internet, but I do resent your insinuation that Zan should be an exclusive club for a handful of people who haven't quit yet just because you've had your fun and don't care anymore

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Re: Public image

#15

Post by Ænima » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:24 am

Marcaek wrote: I don't give a fuck about your resentment of the greater internet, but I do resent your insinuation that Zan should be an exclusive club for a handful of people who haven't quit yet just because you've had your fun and don't care anymore
And when did I say that? I want whatever you're smoking.


I never said that we should be a hermit society or "an exclusive club". I said that we don't need to reach out to Youtubers and Steamtards. We should invite newcomers but shouldn't have to compete with the noise of all the other stuff they see.

Actually, you've brought me to another point:
Marcaek wrote: people who haven't quit yet
THIS is who we need to reach out to. People who still have an interest in Doom. Not Markiplier fans who come here for a week to play Brutal Doom before moving on.

If we advertise Zandronum anywhere, it should be somewhere where fans of the original Doom games are known to frequent. Abandonware/DOS game sites, The Duke3D and Quake communities, the Half-Life community, Doom Facebook groups, etc.

We should also reach out to Skulltag veterans who seem to have disappeared in recent years. I have lots of cool people in my Skype/MSN friends list who might consider giving Zan a shot when they have the time if we show them how far we've come. So I'll do my part with that.
Last edited by Ænima on Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Public image

#16

Post by Lollipop » Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:22 pm

I took your advice and took some time to think about this. I would like to voice my thoughts, although I might not be the most influencial or impactful member in the community, which of course should be taken into account.

1. Zandronum looks bad
I haven't seen this for myself, especially as I haven't been around since before the very last time at ST. I can understand this though if people have taken a look and seen some of the drama shitstorms that were around sometimes and based their opinions solely on that. The only thing we can really do about this is to not enforce it and focus on being something more positive.

2. Plays nothing but mods
I'm puzzled as to why this should be an issue. Other have covered this better than I, but isn't it also kind of the reason this port exists in the first place? To take modding for multiplayer and playing multiplayer mods to the greatest possible level?

3. The community's mental state is alarming compared to other doom communities
Well, the forums have at least settled down after some specific bans were handed out. I don't want to be judgmental here, but it has really been calmer since. I don't see anything elsewhere during the times I can be online that suggests there to be much reason for this to be true. What happens at the forums is also something I would imagine is what others would judge a community on as websites are easily accessible compared to other things, and they function as archives because all posts are stored afterwards. With a long period of time with positive development on the forums could perhaps change, at least for newcomers, how we are percieved as a group.

4. Not enough mod/develop for Zandronum
This is an important point. Development makes the activity, and if popular mods don't get updated and no new mods are made to keep the interest in place, then people will drift away or become forum lurkers.
I liked the point about mod diversity, as I think it is an important point. If mods play largely the same and/or use the same content, then it gets pointless to try new mods. It would also be cool if servers hosted a diverse selection, as I always see the same selection on mods being heavily dominant on the servers when I scroll the list.

Something that seems important to address from my point of view is development of mods in itself. I have seen various projects happen on the forums that just... kinda died out? I know I'm guilty of this myself (100% of the mods I've made), and I'm just wondering if there is a way to deal with that somehow? I don't quite know about how to combat this, by which I mean for each individual dev to be able to keep onto a project. I would actually like some advice on this myself.

If more projects would actually come to fruition, and actually get hosted on servers, then this point would at least partially sort itself out. Zanstuff would also have something to do, which would be great, not only for Zanstuff's sake, but also in order to get people interested in playing the mods that come out.

5. Zandronum stimulates an emotional response which repels users
Just what is this even supposed to mean? I don't think that there is anything about Zandronum in itself as a software that repels users, it is actually one of the most accessible things I've ever gotten into. If you mean the community... then I don't really know.

6. "My reflexes are too shot for multiplayer Doom, and the community has been very good in letting me know that I'm a lesser person because of it. There are holes I will happily not muddy myself in."
This is pathetic. Good luck in life, whoever said this.
If you let something someone on the internet said to you prevent you from playing a game you enjoy, then I don't even....


TL;DR
I think we are overall better off these days than in the past, at least on the forum, although we could use some actual mod releases and have servers actually hosting them in order to keep the attention of the players.

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Re: Public image

#17

Post by NachtIntellect » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:48 pm

This is one of the core reasons I pretty much have stopped doing most things associated with Doom, this is not me saying I have a grudge against other people, this is me saying I feel as if no matter what I do, nobody is ever going to care especially when it comes to the Zandronum community in particular so I take to doing things in private such include Modding which I have lost almost all interest in, sure there are people making videos up on youtube of the stuff I have done but that doesn't feel like it's enough, everytime I do something it's all like "What is that?", "This better be compatible with Brutal Doom", "I've never heard of you", "I would never play your shitty remake", "There isn't enough update, not enough interest/hype for me to care" What I am trying to point out here is that Zandronum as a community is rather cold there is nothing warm and/or welcoming about it "You play Doom? You better be good at deathmatch" honestly I am done and tired of this port, nothing will ever be appreciated, everything is always taken for granted and everything is always expected to be done even when you are the person who is dealing with problems, nobody will care and not many people will look behind the scenes that's just it and if you aren't doing it fast enough, they'll just simply lose interest.

Now, this is probably the most self-centred post I have ever written but take a look at all these, there are facts but then again, this is also life so as such things like these can be expected and I feel as if I am ranting instead of looking at this from a more intellectual perspective at the very least I do feel a little better after writing this.

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Re: Public image

#18

Post by Ivan » Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:55 pm

WhiteAce wrote:This is one of the core reasons I pretty much have stopped doing most things associated with Doom, this is not me saying I have a grudge against other people, this is me saying I feel as if no matter what I do, nobody is ever going to care especially when it comes to the Zandronum community in particular so I take to doing things in private such include Modding which I have lost almost all interest in, sure there are people making videos up on youtube of the stuff I have done but that doesn't feel like it's enough, everytime I do something it's all like "What is that?", "This better be compatible with Brutal Doom", "I've never heard of you", "I would never play your shitty remake", "There isn't enough update, not enough interest/hype for me to care" What I am trying to point out here is that Zandronum as a community is rather cold there is nothing warm and/or welcoming about it "You play Doom? You better be good at deathmatch" honestly I am done and tired of this port, nothing will ever be appreciated, everything is always taken for granted and everything is always expected to be done even when you are the person who is dealing with problems, nobody will care and not many people will look behind the scenes that's just it and if you aren't doing it fast enough, they'll just simply lose interest.

Now, this is probably the most self-centred post I have ever written but take a look at all these, there are facts but then again, this is also life so as such things like these can be expected and I feel as if I am ranting instead of looking at this from a more intellectual perspective at the very least I do feel a little better after writing this.
Congratulations, you just described the part of the port that plays complex doom and it's shitty addons!
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Re: Public image

#19

Post by Mobius » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:40 pm

So I decided to compile a list of common sentiment that aligns with my own.

When addressing Zandronum's projected image to other communities:

"What doom community doesn't have some sort bad image, really? Don't ever open the general discussion in doomworld, I've seen zdoom and it's devs talked about as snarky anti-multiplayer mod lovers, zdaemon requires some basic spanish skills, and poor odamex." ~ Combinebobnt

"Who from this 'oppressed' and outsider crowd is actually worth getting to come here?" ~ Combinebobnt

"You can't really do anything about pleasing people who don't care for Zandronum." ~ Rustking

"Most of the people who play Zan don't give a damn what random person says on a twitter or irc forum." ~ Rustking

"There are people who will eternally hate Zandro even for the slightest reasons and keep echoing it to others. Fuck them." ~ Catastrophe

When addressing people playing nothing but mods (an absurd and stupid proposition):

"Hell yea. How is this a disadvantage?" ~ Combinebobnt

"No incentive to play vanilla. Not enough people playing" ~ Catastrophe

"You should mod for your OWN enjoyment, first and foremost." ~ Aenima

"I'm puzzled as to why this should be an issue." ~ Lollipop

"To take modding for multiplayer and playing multiplayer mods to the greatest possible level?" ~ Lollipop

The premise of quoting particular lines of both primary points is to create a consensus. These forum users represent not only our regulars but players in the servers as well, and they formerly believe, worded differently, that there is no rudimentary problem with our community as a whole. I have expunged mentions of Complex Doom as they represent a niche interest in a larger much more abstract whole, and receive flak from a yearly echo that permeates this community whenever a mod dominates in popularity (GVH, AOW, ZH, CD, BD, Megaman8bit and so on). These have numbers but their interest and generated population is not indicative of Zandronum as a whole but instead making up sums of a whole -- but I digress.

What IS to be addressed is the frivolous accusation of publicity we receive from anonymous accusers. The two main points (public image and playing nothing but modding) do not correlate to any profound relationship other than Zandronum is a multiplayer port that enables mods to be played. Apparently, it is inferred that there's a relationship between one and the other. The "mental" state argument that compared Zandronum's psyche to Zdoom will be suspended because it burrows heavily from the first of our itemized list: Zandronum's public image with exception that now there's a model in which we could contrast significant qualities. Let it be known: Zandronum is merely a lesser Zdoom with SUPERIOR multiplayer capabilities and when or if Zdoom decides to have a netcode that rivals or surpasses this port then that will be the day their community will be flooded with Zandronum users.

The fourth point addresses the development side of Zandronum's user created content. Zandronum has not actively released a new version this year or the previous which could distill the conundrum of our "dip" in activity. Zdoom is ahead of Zandronum and always will be as this port plays a perpetual catch-up game using the parent model to implement features: naturally everyone will go to what is the more updated engine. WE HAVE HAD THIS DISCUSSION ALMOST EVERY YEAR and it always boils down to the same arguments: "DOOM IS DEAD THEY ARE ONLY PLAYING X" which implies mods are not apart of what modern doom is. I believe the mental state of Doom -- all communities -- are laden with intolerant children that lack meta-cognition. How can you voice concerns year and again the same concerns when our communities regularly experiences fluctuations with trends and population? 2009 was GVH. 2010 was AOW. Mods keep our community alive. We should accept that as fact. I cannot speak statistically about Zandronum's modding scene but my experience does denote that we burrow heavily from Zdoom or other to supplement our gaming experience anyhow when native modding fails to satiate our expectations. NOTHING NEW THERE!

"My reflexes are shit for competition and someone said I sucked fuck this game" I intentionally didn't paraphrase the final point. I want people to analyze this and every other point from this perspective with this answer:

That. Sounds. Like. A. Personal. Problem.

Every facet -- spectrum, even detail of this point was so absurdly comical it was like it barely concealed its surreptitious implication. This complaint is extremely telling and deceiving. It shifts responsibility of someone's personal failures to the community at large and I do not mean the "belligerent," but the victim itself. Essentially because the person could not compete adequately they are expected, or even demanded, some special preferential treatment despite admitting to not having the capabilities to perform properly. Then, my friend, what business do you have playing competitively to begin with? Were you not already satisfied with your own incompetence that you must hold our community accountable because we didn't pamper your already discouraged self esteem? This point is not only profound but prevalent among the faceless nobodies in irc channels whether it's doomtwid or random clique channels. People who already knew of their lesser martial position condemning our whole community because their feelings weren't accommodated for when they would intentionally join a game to ONLY FAIL. That is sabotage. Just.. let that sink it. These are the shadow brokers who demand we adhere to them. Had I done the same in 2010 when I joined the machineshop clan I would have been laughed out -- this is somehow legitimate in 2016. This isn't a legitimate argument.


So far though I am proud that members of this community -- that are not in A3/MXU -- have contributed to this topic with the exception of Whiteace who I will address further; however, I am still not satisfied. Where are the other parties? Why are they not represented? I am interested in these detractors moreso than our soft circle jerk.
Whiteace wrote:This is one of the core reasons I pretty much have stopped doing most things associated with Doom, this is not me saying I have a grudge against other people, this is me saying I feel as if no matter what I do, nobody is ever going to care especially when it comes to the Zandronum community in particular so I take to doing things in private such include Modding which I have lost almost all interest in, sure there are people making videos up on youtube of the stuff I have done but that doesn't feel like it's enough, everytime I do something it's all like "What is that?", "This better be compatible with Brutal Doom", "I've never heard of you", "I would never play your shitty remake", "There isn't enough update, not enough interest/hype for me to care" What I am trying to point out here is that Zandronum as a community is rather cold there is nothing warm and/or welcoming about it "You play Doom? You better be good at deathmatch" honestly I am done and tired of this port, nothing will ever be appreciated, everything is always taken for granted and everything is always expected to be done even when you are the person who is dealing with problems, nobody will care and not many people will look behind the scenes that's just it and if you aren't doing it fast enough, they'll just simply lose interest.

Now, this is probably the most self-centred post I have ever written but take a look at all these, there are facts but then again, this is also life so as such things like these can be expected and I feel as if I am ranting instead of looking at this from a more intellectual perspective at the very least I do feel a little better after writing this.
I relate to your qualms having experienced a lot of that myself dealing with my group of people, but I'd say it is a bit different for MXU/A3 when doing their projects and it is what Aenima said. You are not to mod for others. You aren't doing it for recognition despite it being a very, very rewarding plus. You do it for your own amusement. You create things YOU want to play, and eventually traction will catch on. When you say "no one is going to care" you are sabotaging what YOU want to do for yourself and what you want to actively play. When A3/MXU created DBAB we didn't do it because we wanted accolades or to give this community a new LMS/DM mappack. We did it because we were playing LOTS of LMS in our little private servers using EonDM and EonWeps and got excited to make maps for LMS because a lot of LMS suck dick or isn't supported. DBAB then got circle-jerked by Marcaek who would play it every FNF event because he loved it, but that wasn't our primary goal until AFTER we had already worked on it. In short: you have to do things for you and your amusement and if people want you to update rigorously then at least you've warrant enough attention that somebody out there wants to play it. You will always have to shoulder a lot in a system you design because you are its engineer, engine, and architect. Sometimes popularity is just a lottery.

And yeah most of your posts is presumptuous and conceited but that's what you've become since you started posting.
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Re: Public image

#20

Post by ibm5155 » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:27 pm

If you really want the community feedback, you should join every server for asking the same questions, since almost all the users that plays zandronum online almost never goes to zandronum fórum (most may not even know about the zandronum drama, who's banned, beta builds,...)
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