Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

[Combinebobnt]

There was a time when BE didn't exist... Zandronum will not end if the automated clusters die (although you might see less complex bagel brutality)

[Marcaek]

Banning Jen over ancient history would be shooting the port in the foot: justice is meant to be applied sensibly, not autocratically. Jen does shit for this community, Capo is an actively poisonous individual and he's mentioned many times that he doesn't give a shit if he's not welcome here so no tears will be shed.

[Mobius]

Banning Jen over ancient history would be shooting the port in the foot: justice is meant to be applied sensibly, not autocratically. Jen does shit for this community, Capo is an actively poisonous individual and he's mentioned many times that he doesn't give a shit if he's not welcome here so no tears will be shed.

Not to stirr the pot, but the port existed and thrived before BE. That doesn't give him license to do what he wants or wanted. This applies to everyone.

[AlexMax]

I have a question for those of you who think Jenova should be punished. What do you see as an appropriate punishment?

Months? Years? Permanently?

[Marcaek]

He definitely doesn't have a license to do as he wants, but retroactive punishment serves no purpose. You want to set an example? Do something about certain other individuals around here who are still actively DDOSing Doom community sites and generally being poison.

[Armitage]

Jenova dindu nuffin he a good boy.

[Mobius]

I have a question for those of you who think Jenova should be punished. What do you see as an appropriate punishment?

Months? Years? Permanently?

Well unlike Capo, who is repeatably doing this or threatening to do so, I wouldn't out ban the guy even a year since he hasn't done it anymore. His contribution is greater so I'd go far less than only a few weeks at most, maybe even less or a warning to be truly fair; however, it's just to stress that this is a serious security and legal issue blah blah we've been over that and fifth.

He definitely doesn't have a license to do as he wants, but retroactive punishment serves no purpose. You want to set an example? Do something about certain other individuals around here who are still actively DDOSing Doom community sites and generally being poison.

You mean like Capo who, from what I know, is banned? Yeah that already happened. I do agree on retroactive bans being dumb, but there has been sillier punishments dished out in the past.

[cenou]

I have a question for those of you who think Jenova should be punished. What do you see as an appropriate punishment?

Months? Years? Permanently?

I believe Jenova shouldn't be banned in good favour, as if we are going back to the past to ban people why not ban certain individuals who i'm not gonna name who posted a youtube video with a link that made it that your system 32 deleted itself?(which handing out virus's is illegal aswell) and the distribution of malware.

[Frits]

Didn't everyone get pardoned for what they did in skulltag? So jenova falls in this category (4 years ago jeez guys)?

[Mobius]

Didn't everyone get pardoned for what they did in skulltag? So jenova falls in this category (4 years ago jeez guys)?

It was Zandronum technically.

[Watermelon]

If you want to ban me for it though, go right ahead. I'm sure this community would be much better off getting rid of toxic and spiteful players such as myself who have done nothing but negatively impact the community, and not foster a welcoming atmosphere for new players!

Good thing there's TSPG now.
Preempting autism accusations, I've read Jen's post as "I've done this much for the community — ban me and it will be gone".
Not directly, but this meaning is definitely there, aside from appeal to emotion and conscience.

Let's assume you're right and Jenova truly meant what you interpreted it to be, meaning he is using BE as an insurance policy whereby "ban me and I remove BE"

It's been open source since the beginning, and it's trivial from this fact to see how that would completely ruin the above idea. Since that was done from the beginning that means BE could never have been an insurance against such things.

Now the following arguments are flaky in the face of the above, but lets proceed with some corner cases that could be used against him despite the previous point still holding for even the following:

- He made the software open source but made it so you couldn't set it up without getting very frustrated (or more or less, too much of a hassle):
This shoots everyone in the foot since we have to set it up ourselves, and anyone in software development can attest to how bad code leads to major headaches. With it running for 4 years at this point, the massive headache of such things would not be worth it at all. Further it can be seen that you just download a config, set up a LAMP stack (or any stack that supports MySQL) with Java 1.7+ and tweak a config and you're good to go. It does require that you know what you're doing, but anyone with basic knowledge of the Linux system can download the packages and set up the DB, the JRE, and the front end (which is fully optional, technically the A and P are not even required from the LAMP stack). It's not friendly to people who have no idea what they're doing, but they'd likely struggle running their own cluster regardless without someone holding their hand.

- Even in the face of the above, he made it because he'd host the only server cluster that would use it
This was contradicted by him going out of his way and helping -- where by assumption of what you said -- a direct competitor that would completely ruin his plan. IIRC, he told me how he went out of his way and helped TSPG get set up from ground zero and even set up the site for them as well, which doesn't even need to be set up to run the bot (going above and beyond).


So if he was trying to use this for what you said, all these actions would undo the very thing you claimed, and further it would undo it in irreversible ways that even if he decided to turn it all around right this very minute and try to use BE for what you claimed, the genie is quite literally out of the bottle (multiple times) and is impossible to undo. The only way he could possibly ever use BE in such a way is if TSPG was somehow destroyed by an asteroid, every staff member banned every other server cluster that wasn't BE from major hosting, and somehow the source code was removed and deleted from everyone's computer that has it and online, and somehow Google and every search engine on the planet was hacked and had the data destroyed so it could never be resurrected secretly.

[Tenchu]

Banning Jen for what appear to be a few (a single?) isolated incidents four years ago is absolutely insane. People can change, and even in the video immediately after carrying out the attack he admitted to knowing that what he did was wrong and went out of his way to apologize for his actions. Not to mention what he's done for the community. Not saying that BE is the only pillar of the community, but it is by far the largest and most impactful. BE revolutionized mod hosting, it ushered in a new age for Zandronum and is a large part of the reason why there are so many active players on Zandronum today. What real purpose would banning him now serve? To set an example? What a ridiculous idea. There is a reason why judges take into consideration things people have done to better themselves and their communities before carrying out a sentence. In this case, factoring in his contributions to the community, his admission of wrongdoing at the time of the incident, and his stellar track record as a community member in the time since the incident occurred; he should absolutely be given a pardon.

[Mobius]

Banning Jen for what appear to be a few (a single?) isolated incidents four years ago is absolutely insane.

4 incidences I can count and if you do not believe me you can look into the IDL where DDOSing wasn't a one way street.

[Ru5tK1ng]

I have a question for those of you who think Jenova should be punished. What do you see as an appropriate punishment?

Months? Years? Permanently?

Considering I'm not a staff member nor involved in any type of decision making in regards to punishments, I don't see any reason to throw out some arbitrary number. However, I will attest that your choices of years and permanently should be instantly eliminated. Those amounts are reserved for peope like Capo. If you want a concrete number regarding Jenova, go speak with the staff.

He definitely doesn't have a license to do as he wants, but retroactive punishment serves no purpose.

Had it been an instance of simply cheating or impersonation, sure I would agree with you. However, considering the severity and legality regarding DDos'ing, this is on an entirely different level and beyond trivial punishment. Had you been in Legion's place or on the receiving end of such attacks, you'd be singing a different tune.

You want to set an example? Do something about certain other individuals around here who are still actively DDOSing Doom community sites and generally being poison.

Good thing the staff just did what you stated and got rid of Capo.

I believe Jenova shouldn't be banned in good favour, as if we are going back to the past to ban people why not ban certain individuals who i'm not gonna name who posted a youtube video with a link that made it that your system 32 deleted itself?(which handing out virus's is illegal aswell) and the distribution of malware.

I'm not certain who you are referring to. The level of ambiguity in your accusation is far too much to hold any type of weight. Drop the shroud of vagueness and explicitly state who you are talking about. Go hard or go home.

Didn't everyone get pardoned for what they did in skulltag? So jenova falls in this category (4 years ago jeez guys)?

Incorrect. The amnesty was only for banned individuals at the time of the official transition from Skulltag to Zandronum. Additionally, these attacks occurred after the mass pardon and Jenova was never banned. He does not fall into that category.

[ZZYZX]

Water you completely misinterpreted my post. I didn't say that Jen made BE to be used as an insurance policy against future punishment (that's too paranoid even for me), I only said that he is noticeably using the current circumstances to defend himself.

I also don't believe that Jen should be banned for it, simply because too much time has passed. There's absolutely no point in punishing people for something they did multiple years ago on the internet. Perhaps, a warning and a perm for next offense of this kind instead of 1 year. At most. This is also in response to Alex's post.

Had it been an instance of simply cheating or impersonation, sure I would agree with you. However, considering the severity and legality regarding DDos'ing, this is on an entirely different level and beyond trivial punishment. Had you been in Legion's place or on the receiving end of such attacks, you'd be singing a different tune.

Also, did anyone raise a shit wave in the community about it at the time? Or it just went unnoticed? Why didn't Legion go to Metal?

[Marcaek]

Had it been an instance of simply cheating or impersonation, sure I would agree with you. However, considering the severity and legality regarding DDos'ing, this is on an entirely different level and beyond trivial punishment. Had you been in Legion's place or on the receiving end of such attacks, you'd be singing a different tune.

Yeah lets make up hypothetical situations and assume we know how the involved parties would react. Or not.

[Tenchu]

Is there anyone that's actually *for* the banning of Jenova over this?

Yes he definitely committed a crime, and as Rust pointed it out, it's arguably worse than cheating or impersonation. However the overwhelming majority response (including from various staff members) seems to be that he should be pardoned based on the amount of time that has passed, as well as his character and contributions as a community member in the years since it happened. I'm curious to hear any arguments that claim he should still be punished with anything more than a warning (which this thread should definitely serve as).

[Mobius]

Also, did anyone raise a shit wave in the community about it at the time? Or it just went unnoticed? Why didn't Legion go to Metal?

That is interesting but only something Legion can answer, but him uploading a video about probably means either he didn't like it, approve of it, thought it was funny, or all of the above. Then again I wouldn't have went to Metal for something like that considering some of the weird things I've seen in this community Correction! Legion was a part of staff of the time this event occurred. Different administration at the time. That's another topic.

Is there anyone that's actually *for* the banning of Jenova over this?

Technically I believe he should be punished, but the severity can vary because of the huge time lapse. I'm more or less in the spectrum that since Capo is getting handled for both past and present infractions (well deserved, not arguing on his behalf) then other people like Poolie and Jenova should receive some sort of violation issued as I clarified to Alexmax earlier in the thread. The former which is no longer around to be relevant.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Yeah lets make up hypothetical situations and assume we know how the involved parties would react. Or not.

Yes you are actually correct. It doesn't matter at all how you or I would hypothetically act considering neither of us are Legion, Mobius, or Strangle. Likewise, it's not up to you to label retroactive punishment for the DDOS attacks as pointless. No one involved thought it was funny, especially not Legion. Certainly those who were attacked wouldn't deem punishment as having no purpose.

[ZZYZX]

Yes you are actually correct. It doesn't matter at all how you or I would hypothetically act considering neither of us are Legion, Mobius, or Strangle. Likewise, it's not up to you to label retroactive punishment for the DDOS attacks as pointless. No one involved thought it was funny, especially not Legion. Certainly those who were attacked wouldn't deem punishment as having no purpose.

Punishment is not a personal revenge, no matter how unpleasant it was for the involved people. Punishment is meant to prevent repeating of the offense. Aren't four years without repeating enough to be sure?