Zandronum

This one has been on my mind for a while, since my views on the matter don't really align with the rest of the people's. I've noticed that people tend to look down on mods that use r667 resources (please note that by 'resources' I mean 'monsters, weapons, and items').. So I'd like to ask a few questions:

• Why is it bad to use r667 resources in your mod if that's exactly what they're intended for?
• If your answer to the above question is something like 'because everyone uses them', then let me ask you a couple of questions:
  1. Why do you think their repetitive usage across mods devalues said resources? Normal Doom monsters get used in nearly all mods and I don't see anyone complaining about their repetitive usage.
  2. If by 'everyone' you're mostly referring to people who just spam their mods with r667 resources without any dose of originality or purpose, do you think it is fair to assume that any mod that uses r667 resources extensively has its value decreased just because some people from the past used the same resources in a bad way?
• Do you think it's fair to downplay a mod's originality just because it uses r667 resources? What if I told you those resources actually have a gameplay value that can't be achieved by standard Doom/Doom2 actors?
• What if an author has an original idea for a weapon/monster but can't make their own sprites and sounds so they have to use the r667 resources? Would you still look down on said monsters/weapons just because they use such resources?
  • If there was a monster that used the sprites and sounds from r667 but had 70% or more of its functionality changed, do you think the author should explicitly state that to avoid false criticism from people who will think that the author didn't change any of the monster's original functionality? Do you think it is the author's responsibility to let players know about the altered behavior, or do you think it's the players' responsibility to notice a big change in the monster's functionality after having played the mod?

Honestly, I don't see what's the big fuss even if the monsters/weapons are used everywhere with their original code. It alters the mod's gameplay and thus affects the mod's gameplay value. Many of the monsters don't behave like the standard Doom/Doom2 monsters. I honestly don't mind having some variety in weapons/monsters/items.

k here are my opinions

Konda wrote: Why is it bad to use r667 resources in your mod if that's exactly what they're intended for?

It's not

Do you think it's fair to downplay a mod's originality just because it uses r667 resources? What if I told you those resources actually have a gameplay value that can't be achieved by standard Doom/Doom2 actors?

Not if they use it well. If they just go on a copy paste spree or use it just for the sake of it, that's when things become a mess. The resources should be used appropriately and creatively so that they compliment the rest of the wad instead of feeling surgically inserted or there for no reason.

What if an author has an original idea for a weapon/monster but can't make their own sprites and sounds so they have to use the r667 resources? Would you still look down on said monsters/weapons just because they use such resources?

This is probably one of the best reasons to use r667 stuff really, as not too many people can sprite well or produce good sound effects.

If there was a monster that used the sprites and sounds from r667 but had 70% or more of its functionality changed, do you think the author should explicitly state that to avoid false criticism from people who will think that the author didn't change any of the monster's original functionality? Do you think it is the author's responsibility to let players know about the altered behavior, or do you think it's the players' responsibility to notice a big change in the monster's functionality after having played the mod?

It's probably a good idea for the best of his wad. He doesn't have to do anything, but if people are going to give false criticism, that could easily get rid of it.

basically tldr don't ctrlc ctrlv the hell out of the repository and use it appropriately instead. keeping it creative is better, especially with all the negative reputation it has

I say it's a good way to learn how to create your own weapon/monster, by studying the DECORATE, and behaviors. Also they make decent placeholders/templates for bigger, better things. So that's why R667 resources while are frowned upon being used in mods still, it helps to practice, compare, substitute, and inspire when making your original/edited mod content. That's my opinion though, I could just be very wrong and misled. My two cents.

aslong they have a purpose I'm fine with it.

I have to admit, I don't get the fuss about it - a lot of the monsters actually fill roles that normal doom 2 monsters can't. I'm the guy running samsaraHold, and no one complains about the use of R667 monsters there (and there are a lot of them).

Honestly, as long as you are giving them reason and not adding them just for the sake of adding them, I don't see any problem - heck, used well, it could totally add to the experience. For example, samsarahold would be much more boring if all I had was the Doom II beastiary - Here's the problems I have with them, and what R667 monsters can fill those niches from all of which are used in samsarahold:

-Every super-low tier monster except imps are hitscanners
^^^Which, in samsarahold, is filled with more imp variants, which is kinda "for the sake of it", but eh

-There's nothing in the 120-200 HP range except pinkies which have no ranged attacks
^^^Catharsi and Phase Imps

-There's only one ranged flyer (cacodemon) (lost souls are melee, pain elementals can only spit out lost souls)
^^^Enhanced Cacodemons, Wickeds, Guardian Cubes, Hades Elementals

-There's only one monster with a spread attack (mancubus)
^^^Fusion Spider, Catharsi, Enhanced Cacodemons, virtually all of the miniboss enemies

-There's absolutely nothing between the barons and bosses (no "minibosses", so to speak)
^^^Hectebus, Bruiser Demon, Archon Of Hell, Hades Elemental, Diabolist (though honestly the diabolists are far worse than the actual original bosses, in terms of deadliness)

-nothing tougher than the cyberdemon
^^^Demolisher, Terminator

Konda wrote: Why is it bad to use r667 resources in your mod if that's exactly what they're intended for?

I don't think it is, since it's exactly what the author intended. To me it's like music really, you design it because you like it.

Do you think it's fair to downplay a mod's originality just because it uses r667 resources? What if I told you those resources actually have a gameplay value that can't be achieved by standard Doom/Doom2 actors?

I don't think it's fair. I think one thing people don't understand is that creating a sprite from scratch is really time consuming, and most IWAD native monsters are limited.

What if an author has an original idea for a weapon/monster but can't make their own sprites and sounds so they have to use the r667 resources? Would you still look down on said monsters/weapons just because they use such resources?

I wouldn't. Though I might encourage decorate or some color shifting with TEXTURES to try to make it unique.

If there was a monster that used the sprites and sounds from r667 but had 70% or more of its functionality changed, do you think the author should explicitly state that to avoid false criticism from people who will think that the author didn't change any of the monster's original functionality? Do you think it is the author's responsibility to let players know about the altered behavior, or do you think it's the players' responsibility to notice a big change in the monster's functionality after having played the mod?

They probably should let the public know they changed it and point to the source (though I think most people have to do that anyways if they use it).

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I think a large reason people feel this way is that there's a lot of [bad] mod creators who shove in Realm 667 monsters into their mod just to make it different. It ends up making most r667 monsters look overused or placed in newbie mods. I know I've played my fair share of crap mods where someone pastes tons of different monsters in a mod. I wont lie, I even made a mod (that wont see the light of day) many many years ago... which did this exact thing. I'm so glad I didn't release it. Back then, I was just learning decorate and never saw most of these monsters, so I spammed them.

Yeah, as already said, the infamous 'r667' reputation isn't about the site itself, but the dozens and dozens of subpar mods that simply cram as much content from r667 in as possible with little/no regard for balance, consistency or originality.

The result is often a horrible mish mash that does no credit to the bestiary it completely abuses.

Just follow the age old rule: Quality over Quantity!

I think of R667 resources like spices or condiments; they're a quick way to make an already-yummy dish even more savory, but you need to know how to make them work well. Soy sauce doesn't go on ice cream, and you can't make a meal out of mixing together only ketchup, chives, and Nutella.


I always end up making tons of edits to the R667 monsters I do use though, because I end up getting really picky.

Konda wrote: Why is it bad to use r667 resources in your mod if that's exactly what they're intended for?

It's not. The problem is that they are not intended to be simply mindlessely used in all mods, which is something that happens a lot.

Konda wrote: Why do you think their repetitive usage across mods devalues said resources? Normal Doom monsters get used in nearly all mods and I don't see anyone complaining about their repetitive usage.

i didn't really answer "because they get used a lot" to the above butttttttttt
This is a little tricky to explain for me. Basically, the reason Doom monsters don't get much complaints about is because they are pretty much your default "tools" that come with the engine - if you're doing a doom project, it's pretty much a given that you will use those. They are, in a way, part of Doom, it's natural to see them everywhere, no problems about that. When custom monsters start being used, this means that you want to expand a little beyond what Doom's default beastiary has to offer, and bring new, refreshing stuff into your work.

And then you fucking use the same fucking overused shit that everyone has seen 9000 times already by now. Made worse because only like the same 10 or 15% of R667 beastiary gets actually used - the rest of arguably same quality monsters gets to rot in eternal abandonment.

If you want to bring something new, try to make it actually be new, or avoid it althogether.

This is not me trying to say that all R667 is bad - there are justified cases in using monsters even if they are overused by now - see above posters for this. But on the other hand, always remember - bringing an entirely new monster will always make your work more memorable than just using R667 again.

Konda wrote: If by 'everyone' you're mostly referring to people who just spam their mods with r667 resources without any dose of originality or purpose, do you think it is fair to assume that any mod that uses r667 resources extensively has its value decreased just because some people from the past used the same resources in a bad way?

No.

But life isn't fair. Welcome to life.

People are geared towards pessimism and skepticism more, so when you see screenshots of r667 monsters it's natural to assume "oh hey it's another ripfest" until proven otherwise. This is not right nor fair in my opinion, but I cannot really blame people for this.

Konda wrote: Do you think it's fair to downplay a mod's originality just because it uses r667 resources? What if I told you those resources actually have a gameplay value that can't be achieved by standard Doom/Doom2 actors?

Yes. As said, using a new monster instead of copying will improve originality. This is natural, you cannot argue with it here. Of course, filling a gameplay gap with a copied resource is better than filling a gap with no resource, but as far as originality is concerned, you still lose.

Konda wrote: What if an author has an original idea for a weapon/monster but can't make their own sprites and sounds so they have to use the r667 resources? Would you still look down on said monsters/weapons just because they use such resources?

No. This case is justified, in my opinion. Please note that my opinion in this case is biased because I fit the description of an author you provided almost completely.

Konda wrote: If there was a monster that used the sprites and sounds from r667 but had 70% or more of its functionality changed, do you think the author should explicitly state that to avoid false criticism from people who will think that the author didn't change any of the monster's original functionality? Do you think it is the author's responsibility to let players know about the altered behavior, or do you think it's the players' responsibility to notice a big change in the monster's functionality after having played the mod?

I do not believe it is an author's responsibility to tell people about anything, really. This is what should be left for their own discretion. As for false criticism, if the monster/weapon/etc. does indeed have more than 70% of it's functionality changed, then everyone who actually bothered to play would have noticed. In this case, it is my opinion that everyone who provides false criticism by saying "hurr non-modified r667 mobs" is an idiot and his opinion can be safely ignored.


TL;DR - the only real problem about R667 is that it's too easy to horribly misuse it. Unfortunately, this is something that R667's nature itself leads to, and without crushing everything and rebuilding in an entirely different manner, there is little one can do here.

They are good. Although am sick of Anni\Bruiser\archon\every baron\cyber replacement with 20000 hp and spread seeker attacks. If a monster is going to have boss stats it better not appear every 2 minutes. I found rating wads by how quickly they give me a headache a very effective measure to rate them. -Am scared because shitty wad contest maps didn't give me a headache as fast as some wads people make-

TL;DR good resources. Offtopic : This is an FPS not a grindfest, if you want to mod at least play the wad before releasing it.. can't be that hard unless the wad is aweful!

Cruduxy wrote: They are good. Although am sick of Anni\Bruiser\archon\every baron\cyber replacement with 20000 hp and spread seeker attacks. If a monster is going to have boss stats it better not appear every 2 minutes. I found rating wads by how quickly they give me a headache a very effective measure to rate them. -Am scared because shitty wad contest maps didn't give me a headache as fast as some wads people make-

TL;DR good resources. Offtopic : This is an FPS not a grindfest, if you want to mod at least play the wad before releasing it.. can't be that hard unless the wad is aweful!

Eh; I can forgive that particular transgression as long as (and this list is an "and" list, not "or", both things must be present):

A: They're not bosses with obnoxious amounts of health - The notorious R667 Bruiser Demon only has 1500 (for comparison, Cyberdemons have 4000), because honestly, if I can handle "oh hey lets throw 5 cyberdemons at once", I can handle custom bosses - especially those that are intrinsically more interesting to fight than cyberdemons.

B: You have a BFG-tier weapon, of course. It's slaughterfest gameplay, and I swear only Boom-Compatible mapsets make use of the slaughterfest gameplay genre (excepting a few exceptions here and there, such as samsarahold, heh).