Two examples why 3D floors should be OPTIONAL for Software users

[Espio]

Who Dun It: Asylum:

Zandronum:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

4 Frames Per Second! Do you know how unplayable that is??

Skulltag 98D(Uncapped):

http://i47.tinypic.com/n5mxw3.png (Doesn't want to display with the img tags, just open in a new tab.)

36 Frames Per Second. That sounds alot more reasonable despite parts of a map missing.

Stronghold: Str14:

Zandronum:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

11 Frames Per Second not including monster spawns, hardly playable if at all.

Skulltag 98D:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2lxdouw.png (New tab)

40 Frames Per Second! And only at the cost of a nicer looking map..

The point I'm trying to make at here is you're drawing away users with bad hardware from great mods just because things are missing from what was intentional during a map's development.

I don't care about see-through floors or missing distant aesthetics, I want my frame rate to be stable so I(And others with a hardware situation like mine) can have a fun time with the users on this port! I shouldn't be forced into getting a new computer to play stuff like this; this hasn't been such a great idea when it was first thought of back when 98E was introduced for beta-testing.

Sure you can argue this never occurs on smaller maps with 3D floors and that's ok. But bloody hell make it entirely optional for resource hungry maps like I just listed above.

[Ijon Tichy]

problem with that is that it becomes a sort of wallhacking

for example, my aerowalk map - disabling 3D floors there would give you a HUGE advantage, since the entire second floor past the wind tunnel is one 3D floor

[ibm5155]

Hmm what´s your processor?
I didn´t test all the maps but on my old pentium 3 it was fine on 640x480 on most of maps .-.
Well the latest that I´ve tested was an atom 1,6GHz vd my i7.
On zm09map I got 30-40fps on soft and 100/200fps on i7 lol.

I think 3D floor on software is nice, even because the same maps that you tested are heavy on opengl too...
But if people still playing with that hardware, It may require an button to on/off or a hardware upgrade (like ati 5450...)

edit: /\ that´s a problem to

[Hypnotoad]

There are many other ways to destroy a frame rate other than 3d floors, I do not think people should have the option to potentially completely break the map possibly without even knowing it.

These are examples of why mappers need to be more considerate of software users (or really, people not using nvidia, since OpenGL sucks on many amd cards), appalling frame rates has always been a problem with zombie horde (along with excessive darkness), before software 3d floors existed. These are not examples of why people should optionally be allowed to break a map if they want to. Also, I am pretty sure Stronghold is not supposed to be run in software at all.

[Espio]

Also, I am pretty sure Stronghold is not supposed to be run in software at all.

It's not, but I do it anyway. :V

Understandable then, but in any case I know the port is growing and starting to get newer features to work in Software. Just not everyone can have a fun and playable experience from the extra rendering which makes the maps look well done or easier to play on.

The claim about Zombie Horde is pretty true too.. but I never touch the wad anymore so I don't how it's like there now with 3D floor spam.

problem with that is that it becomes a sort of wallhacking

for example, my aerowalk map - disabling 3D floors there would give you a HUGE advantage, since the entire second floor past the wind tunnel is one 3D floor

I'm aware. I wish there was some sort of a workaround on that though to prevent any cheating of seeing through floors.

Hmm what´s your processor?

Celeron 2.20 GHZ. Yeah, Acer and Intel make the shittest store brand lappys ever.

[Qent]

compat_optional3dfloors?

Or even a MAPINFO property, since it's kind of more map-dependent than server-dependent.

[ibm5155]

Well both mods that you tested are not little for the hardware, even on opengl you would get low fps lol
Aslo why not opengl? If it´s the gpu sucks, go to a nvidia 9400gt, it sucks yes, but in doom it have more framerates than my intel hd 3000 O_Om and i think it still can play some new games

[someoneelse]

Erm... but without 3d floors, you would just be unable to play those maps, unless you know all 3d floors by heart. So, well, maybe accepting some things just won't run on your PC is not the worst idea? (I use software myself, as OGL works terribly bad for me).

[katZune]

compat_optional3dfloors?

Or even a MAPINFO property, since it's kind of more map-dependent than server-dependent.

time ago i was talking about that with torr samaho in the old post of the "kgsw's skulltag version", there must be an option something like "disable/able 3D floors allowed" and of course a command like cl_3dfloors, would be useful in some servers (or wads) that they add 3d floors only for details, of course there are maps that put 3d floors for make a roof and if you have 3d floors turned off can be detected like wallhack, since i have a new pc that problem is not annoying me anymore :)

[Espio]

Well both mods that you tested are not little for the hardware, even on opengl you would get low fps lol
Aslo why not opengl? If it´s the gpu sucks, go to a nvidia 9400gt, it sucks yes, but in doom it have more framerates than my intel hd 3000 O_Om and i think it still can play some new games

Uh, you can't really upgrade anything in a confined laptop other than the ram.

Why not LaggyGL? Because I don't have true hardware to run Zandronum's outdated OpenGL properly.

[Qent]

The sad truth is that as people's computers get better, more people will naturally mod to the capabilities of their own hardware. WDI requires OpenGL. It always has. The fact that you used to be able to run it through the hackiness of ignoring all 3-D floors does not mean that you met the system requirements then or now. (I don't know about Stronghold, but from the sound of it it was also made for OpenGL.) Zandronum 2.0's updated GL renderer will alleviate that somewhat (e.g. mods like Stronghold were made for GZDoom, not Skulltag or Zandronum), but it will also encourage some people to go even more overboard with effects that your laptop cannot render quickly. Ultimately you either need to play mods within your specs or upgrade.

compat_optional3dfloors?

Or even a MAPINFO property, since it's kind of more map-dependent than server-dependent.

Actually maybe a compatflag would be enough, and only for cooperative mods. For PvP (like WDI), I would expect it to help only when the floors aren't decorative, i.e. seeing through them would be considered cheating.

[Espio]

Actually maybe a compatflag would be enough, and only for cooperative mods. For PvP (like WDI), I would expect it to help only when the floors aren't decorative, i.e. seeing through them would be considered cheating.

Some maps are practically near pitch black anyway so I can't really see more than a foot or two ahead of me. Let alone looking up or down through invisible floors to see much.

[Llewellyn]

Actually maybe a compatflag would be enough, and only for cooperative mods. For PvP (like WDI), I would expect it to help only when the floors aren't decorative, i.e. seeing through them would be considered cheating.

Sounds like that calls for a method to tag 3D Floors as "detail" in the actual map itself.

[ibm5155]

Well both mods that you tested are not little for the hardware, even on opengl you would get low fps lol
Aslo why not opengl? If it´s the gpu sucks, go to a nvidia 9400gt, it sucks yes, but in doom it have more framerates than my intel hd 3000 O_Om and i think it still can play some new games

Uh, you can't really upgrade anything in a confined laptop other than the ram.

Why not LaggyGL? Because I don't have true hardware to run Zandronum's outdated OpenGL properly.

Hmm I think it was a computer, well that´s the problem with notebooks .-.
In some rare cases, it could use an external gpu :)
But the best solution should be buy a new one, Even more because that notebook shouldn´t even run doom 3 or half life 2 o_O that are too old games.

The problem for modders that have great computers in most of case i think is they think it´s fine if it´s playable on it´s hardware, and it doesn´t have a great sence of how well it would run in other hardwares...

Here´s just a system require that i think zan should have
minimun(run iwads only)
pentium 200MHz,128mb of ram, 2d gpu

medium(run most of mods)
pentium 3 1GHz, nvidia FX5500, 1gb of ram

Good(run mods in opengl)
core i3, intel hd 3000,2GB of ram

[Espio]

But the best solution should be buy a new one, Even more because that notebook shouldn´t even run doom 3 or half life 2 o_O that are too old games.

This is my main problem.. buying. I can't afford jack so I have to make do with what I have for the time being.

DooM 3? Oh this piece of shit just barely runs it. By barely I mean not crashing or anything with shadows and other things turned off.

[mr fiat]

But the best solution should be buy a new one, Even more because that notebook shouldn´t even run doom 3 or half life 2 o_O that are too old games.

This is my main problem.. buying. I can't afford jack so I have to make do with what I have for the time being.

DooM 3? Oh this piece of shit just barely runs it. By barely I mean not crashing or anything with shadows and other things turned off.

well you're screwed then (if that celeron is a single core then I feel bad for you, not that that I have room to speak as I have a celeron too but its a 2,6 ghz dual core and runs most games)

[Jwarrier]

I think the true point to this topic is this.... upgrade your damn computer!

[StrikerMan780]

Pretty much. Tech is moving forward, (G)ZDoom/Zandronum is getting much more advanced internally, and really... trying to butcher the port and hinder further advancement to cater to computers that were designed for net browsing and basic business office work isn't really the way to go. Especially considering they are weaker than even the average smartphone nowadays. It's like saying you shouldn't be forced to upgrade from a Pentium 2 to play Doom 3, because Doom 2 ran fine. (Which to note, I had when that game was released, and what had prompted me to catch up at the time.)

Making 3D Floors optional isn't a good idea. Like others said, it would give software users an unfair advantage. Not to mention splinter the community like what was originally feared when supporting 3D Floors in multiplayer without software support.

Besides, Zandronum is just very far behind in updates. As far as I know, 3D Floors in the later ZDoom builds are much more optimized. Not to mention the OpenGL Renderer being much better in the latest GZDoom. Though, as it is, the actual requirements for good OpenGL Performance isn't even that high. (A GeForce 8600 is more than enough. You can even get away with using a GeForce 6200 in most situations.)

Funny enough, I managed to get OpenGL to run fairly smooth on a pair of Voodoo2's using MesaGL. (60fps on stock Doom 2 maps.) Had to be in compatibility mode, but still is quite an achievement nonetheless.

If I wasn't saving up to travel across the country, I'd offer to help you get a decent desktop rather than a laptop... but, that'll have to wait.

[ibm5155]

Well I got a notebook for school, and what I needed was much cpu power than gpu, I selected an I7 with intel hd 3000 gpu (if I was going to buy today i would select the 4000).
The problem was intel notebooks with dedicated gpus was too expencive D:, and well that intel gpu can even play tomb raider reboot on medium settings D:
[by the way, the power of hd 3000 is the same as the geforce 8600 lol].
It´s not the best but I tested the hd 1000 with a pentium dual core and it was enough to play zandronum online in 1024x768 lol

[mr fiat]

Pretty much. Tech is moving forward, and really... trying to butcher the port to cater to computers that were designed for net browsing and basic business office work isn't really the way to go.

Making 3D Floors optional isn't a good idea. Like others said, it would give software users an unfair advantage. Not to mention splintering the community like what was originally feared when supporting 3D Floors in multiplayer.

Besides, Zandronum is just very far behind in updates. As far as I know, 3D Floors in the later ZDoom builds are much more optimized. Not to mention the OpenGL Renderer being much better in the latest GZDoom. Though, as it is, the actual requirements for good OpenGL Performance isn't even that high. (A GeForce 8600 is more than enough. You can even get away with using a GeForce 6200 in most situations.)

Funny enough, I managed to get OpenGL to run fairly smooth on a pair of Voodoo2's using MesaGL. (60fps on stock Doom 2 maps.) Had to be in compatibility mode, but still is quite an achievement nonetheless.

If I wasn't saving up to travel across the country, I'd offer to help you get a decent desktop rather than a laptop... but, that'll have to wait.

I recently tried to play zh on a pc with a terrible integrated graphics chip and 1,8 ghz celeron and... it worked! but I got like 20 fps so not really playable, but still. it handles anything that isn't super intensive pretty well.