Zandronum

For those of you who are familiar with Private CTF, it is a competitive gamestyle which skilled players and people who want to become (more) skilled play against each other to hone their scrimmage abilities and/or skill for competitive leagues such as the IDL. For those of us who are serious about priv, we play because we like competition. It's simple as that. Priv was always based off of this principle and never has changed, though over the past few months there has been some serious issues going on which need to be addressed. Therefore please actually read the whole thread before you post. If you make some asinine response, don't start crying when you get your argument (and ass) torn apart. If you're confused on what priv is or have deluded yourself into thinking that any random newbie should be allowed in, you need to get your definitions straightened out before you make a potential fool of yourself.


Currently the problem seemed to have started on GV because anyone and their dog can get the password on it. This resulted in relaxed measures (mainly because a majority of the GV staff excluding Dragon and HeavenWraith dislike priv a lot) and anyone getting the password, which flooded GV with clueless players who degraded the quality of priv so much that GV became known as the place where clueless players go since anyone who wasn't serious could play priv and ruin it.


Sadly this spread over to NJ and BE servers, and has become ridiculous over the past few weeks. What kind of problems are we running into with every random person having the password? Stuff like:

• People who cant play positions properly (ex: playing defense without actually defending the flag)
• People who don't play CTF properly (don't return flags, think its TDM)
• People who bind spam all the time
• Captains who end up making terrible picks and skew the teams, thus wasting 15 minutes of everyones life
• People who randomly callvote kick
• People who grind priv to a halt and cause excess drama (see your nearest gridlocked intersection for more information)
• Loss of skilled players when they get upset with priv going nowhere

Obviously this has to stop. Today someone violated around 4-5 of these in one go like a boss, and I told them that they need to act together or get out. Apparently people were defending this person, so that left me to make this thread because something is critically wrong when people are defending someone who is affecting the game that is functioning. One member came to me complaining about how bad it is and is getting irritated with how priv is turning out; upon querying more people this seems to be a commonly held sentiment -- thus -- it's time to address and solve it.

This may sound harsh but the community needs to pick a direction, and while non-competitive players don't play, I figure it would not hurt to get external insight into the situation from our critical thinkers who can offer great opinions to possibly remedy the situation -- and therefore may influence this mess in a remedial fashion instead of leaving it withering and dying the way it is. For priv players, you're the ones with experience so please speak up.

We have a few options options:

1. Get a new password, monitor who gets the password closely and ban anyone leaking the password
2. Get Konar's password system on NJ and BE
3. Create an elite style priv for only the serious players since "priv" is at a point where it's not worth playing
4. Do nothing and just give everyone the password, essentially making it public and abolishing private altogether

What do you think?




EDIT:
Let me clarify that I do NOT mind helping people get better and I have actively done so my entire existence in priv. I also DO NOT mind playing with people who are not good; but I personally am tired of people who are really bad and refuse to get better. We have some great upcoming people like one_two, nub_hat and such who are getting better and making us proud.

I don't really priv much, though I will watch players there to see what they do to help me scrim better. I'd say anyone in a competetive clan (obv with exceptions) should get pw. I've seen very good/experienced players be idiots tbh but I won't name names.

I would like to get back into priv and hone my CTF skills a bit.


And regarding the idiots who slow the game down or chat too much: Howbout a "3 strikes, you're out" type deal? Just ban them from the server after their third infraction. They can go play somewhere else.

Buy your own server and then you'll have absolute control

You'll be able to keep out whomever you want, play whenever you want.

what more could you ask for?

I'll give a viewpoint from as an External Spectator since I don't play Zandronum Priv very often.

Priv isn't a place for new players at all. Its sole purpose should be an environment where good, competitive players can come gather together and enjoy high quality, highly skilled pick up matches. Priv is not a training ground for players. There is nothing wrong with playing Priv to get better, however, there has to be a skill level requirement in order for a player to take part.

ZDaemon Priv was highly successful because of the guidelines and model that were implemented. There was just a simple server password (ZD didn't have join passwords then) that was handed out to players. General Priv rules, such as no aliasing and capping after random caps were assigned, were enforced. If the occasional newbie happened to pop in and ruin Priv, he was simply not picked and sat as a spectator for the rest of the games. If someone came in and disrupted a match or broke any server rules, they were banned and they were outta there for good until they were allowed back in (if ever).

I don't think it's necessary to go all out on a new password system. I believe that the solution is to establish guidelines and rules for Priv. Anyone who does any action that is against the established rules should be removed via ban for an unspecified amount of time. Ignorance is no excuse. I'll make one suggestion as a guideline: All players must use ONE name and if they do not reveal themselves after being asked to, then BAN. OUT. This is why we never had a problem with aliasing in ZDaemon Priv and I must give nostar credit for enforcing that rule with an Iron Fist.

Establishing what Priv is and what Priv isn't should be the first step taken in order to avoid the problems that have been occurring lately.

I was thinking... of what AlexMax used to do is sign up for a Website then apply for the priv password, put your known aliases and register to the website and submit the password, once then the Admins will decide if accept the player thus giving them their password, It was kinda good option for those who don't like newbies ruining up priv.

Just my 2 cents.

Watermelon wrote:We have a few options options:

1. Get a new password, monitor who gets the password closely and ban anyone leaking the password
2. Get Konar's password system on NJ and BE
3. Create an elite style priv for only the serious players since "priv" is at a point where it's not worth playing
4. Do nothing and just give everyone the password, essentially making it public and abolishing private altogether

What do you think?

1. Won't work. It's been tried before, and monitoring everyone who has the password gets tedious easily.
2. Konar's password system is actually pretty effective, and eradicates 99% of the aliasing. However, this alone won't fix the problems you're facing.
3. Honestly, priv was originally meant to be an "elite style" activity. I think the biggest factor that heavily distorted that concept is how you only had to be in a self-proclaimed competitive clan to join. So yes, it probably is a better idea to weed out many of the players who aren't really priv material (and should go back to Halo 4/Black Ops 2). This would work great with #2.
4. This is probably the direction it'll take if no one acts in this matter. I'm not going to say this is extremely bad, but it is of your best interest to look into your previous options.

Spider wrote: I was thinking... of what AlexMax used to do is sign up for a Website then apply for the priv password, put your known aliases and register to the website and submit the password, once then the Admins will decide if accept the player thus giving them their password, It was kinda good option for those who don't like newbies ruining up priv.

Just my 2 cents.

The problem is that it was a good idea...but it never really worked out. I never ever registered on the website but I always frequented priv and nobody really cared. Also some people still actually got the password in the end, the only thing it did was prolong the amount of time before the password got around. I remember saying how bad of an idea it is before but it happened anyways.

Savant wrote: Buy your own server and then you'll have absolute control

You'll be able to keep out whomever you want, play whenever you want.

what more could you ask for?

I already technically have that on all 3 ports for the competitive servers american wise, both rcon and terminal access.
This is a community thing though. While me going totalitarian ban-hammering would solve the problem really quick, I figured this would be a better approach; hopefully is.

Here's the way I see it. The private CTF scene here on Zandronum has been falling off a lot lately. I do believe that priv should have standards but if a player shows that they want to get involved and get improve themselves then why not? If a new player joins and just all of a sudden gets kicked its more or less just gonna make them shy away from it. If that keeps happening then the old priv players are gonna get bored playing with the same people every day and probably and stop playing (like myself) We need some variety and new blood. Besides I've always seen priv as a place for players to relax in a semi-competitive environment. If you want to play in a super uber elitist environment, then by all means, join the IDL.

Watermelon wrote: I already technically have that on all 3 ports for the competitive servers american wise, both rcon and terminal access.
This is a community thing though. While me going totalitarian ban-hammering would solve the problem really quick, I figured this would be a better approach; hopefully is.

If you have absolute control on these servers as you've stated you should have reasonable quality control on who plays and who doesn't.

case and point if I can make a server for me and my friends to play in from my computer for us to enjoy there shouldn't be any reason why you cannot do the same especially when you have three entire server clusters at your whim.

And another thing we can broadcast servers that are invisible to the master server list and no one will be able to join it unless they add it to their list of custom servers.

You should probably just make the current servers public and keep the "elite" to private servers inaccessible from the master list that are invite only

The problem on Zandronum priv is that nobody ever did any culling of players. I know I gave the password out to anybody who asked, but even when I defer to my admins different admins had different standards of who they thought should be allowed to play. I know I got more than one angry PM asking why so-and-so got access and how so-and-so admin doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, and so on...

If Priv is supposed to be an exclusive club, who gets to pick who gets in and who gets out? And when there aren't enough people for a priv, how much do you lower your standards so you can get a game in without going back to the "everybody knows the password" system we have now?

Another thought. Could the solution to Priv's woes be part-technical? Perhaps some sort of DUEL32-ish start map could formalize the process of picking players or claiming roles? Would implementing voice chat into Zandronum help players coordinate so you don't have to point people to a teamspeak server, with all the server politics that entails?

Savant wrote:

Watermelon wrote: I already technically have that on all 3 ports for the competitive servers american wise, both rcon and terminal access.
This is a community thing though. While me going totalitarian ban-hammering would solve the problem really quick, I figured this would be a better approach; hopefully is.

If you have absolute control on these servers as you've stated you should have reasonable quality control on who plays and who doesn't.

case and point if I can make a server for me and my friends to play in from my computer for us to enjoy there shouldn't be any reason why you cannot do the same especially when you have three entire server clusters at your whim.

And another thing we can broadcast servers that are invisible to the master server list and no one will be able to join it unless they add it to their list of custom servers.

You should probably just make the current servers public and keep the "elite" to private servers inaccessible from the master list that are invite only

That would kind of be a middle finger to master bans though? I dunno.

The solution is to find a way to make public ctf good (again?), so that newer players have somewhere to play semi organized ctf and hone their skills so they do not drag down priv.

Hypnotoad wrote: The solution is to find a way to make public ctf good (again?), so that newer players have somewhere to play semi organized ctf and hone their skills so they do not drag down priv.

So true man, maybe forcing just 3 or 4 players per team might help. The assumption that pub is completely uncontrollable may not be true, most people who join must want a decent game.

[quote=RedShirt]If you want to play in a super uber elitist environment, then by all means, join the IDL.[/quote]
Oh you. We aren't super uber elitist. We are semi-elitist. :)

[quote=Savant]And another thing we can broadcast servers that are invisible to the master server list and no one will be able to join it unless they add it to their list of custom servers.

You should probably just make the current servers public and keep the "elite" to private servers inaccessible from the master list that are invite only[/quote]
This is actually a good idea and this is exactly what Total Trash on ZD did. It lowered the chance of random newbies joining the server. Sure the IP could be as easily passed around as a server password, but together it makes the process a bit more of a pain which is enough to keep some players who don't belong out.

[quote=AlexMax]Another thought. Could the solution to Priv's woes be part-technical? Perhaps some sort of DUEL32-ish start map could formalize the process of picking players or claiming roles?[/quote]
That's quite unnecessary. The current system and team chat is enough.

[quote=AlexMax]Would implementing voice chat into Zandronum help players coordinate so you don't have to point people to a teamspeak server, with all the server politics that entails?[/quote]
This could possibly be a good idea. Although I still see players sticking to their TS of choice.

[quote=HypnoToad]The solution is to find a way to make public ctf good (again?), so that newer players have somewhere to play semi organized ctf and hone their skills so they do not drag down priv. [/quote]
Pub is never the answer. Pub will never be organized to the point of playing the role of training grounds for CTF. Anyway, most competitive players find their way into Priv by improving themselves. Some players work on their aim by dueling. Others learn tactics through clan scrims. A few do both. Pub is just a random mess of players going at each other. Some players enjoy this type of environment and some don't. That's just the way it is.

I would support a start map only so picking a map doesn't take 10 years but that's just me.

One good place to start though would be to bring in Konar's password system to FC and BE. It makes it much easier to figure out who's leaking the pass and as a result who to hammer for it.

Ru5tK1ng wrote: Pub is never the answer. Pub will never be organized to the point of playing the role of training grounds for CTF. Anyway, most competitive players find their way into Priv by improving themselves. Some players work on their aim by dueling. Others learn tactics through clan scrims. A few do both. Pub is just a random mess of players going at each other. Some players enjoy this type of environment and some don't. That's just the way it is.

When I say "make pub better" I mean to include possibly radical options, like a scripted system that ensures things are properly organized, possibly including punishments (several day long ban?) for repeated deliberate leaving mid game, and auto team balancing if there is excessive frag differential.

That being said I DO remember a time, years ago, when pub ctf was fine and organized. It was not as tactical as priv, but people managed to play as a team with some tactical awareness.

edit: also given that its possible with external utilities to save persistent data now, you could make some kind of player ranking system that gives people an incentive to play properly, as is done in modern games.

[spoiler]little background, signed up for zd in 05 and played a ST tourny in 06. Stopped playing for several years but I came back last year, and I actually hadn't done any priv in the past.
Back then DM was actually played. Can you believe that? *sigh* even terminator, and eventually buckshot, with I think the release of 97.b. Damn I remember the release "party" and anticipation in the IRC channel, was chaos![/spoiler]
FORMER PRIV NEWBIE TESTIMONIAL
Having just returned, I thought I'd check out this priv thing-as it was about the only way to play doom for a while. I signed up for the fun crusher's website, to never so much as to get a reply. Finally after a few months, a few people had the decency to leak the password. I can understand the reluctance, what with aliasers and what not.

I had not much a clue, of how it was played; I didn't even know there was a captain system. 'was pretty stoked about that, but it was almost overwhelming initially. Despite the obnoxious, mob mentality and endless scapegoating from the mass of unsupportive players- I was able to learn the rules without some written guide. In fact, actually I do recall Watermelon being patient with me as I was starting, and helping calm people down. I didn't play priv at daily paces, so it was a bit rocky at first.
----
-I do not think guides should be strict or mandatory. If there are new people stringing into priv, they shouldn't even be picked to begin with- to allow such an impedance. If they're picked, view it as a red flag on zandronum's player shortage and help them out.

-I do not subscribe to the idea that those who want competitive should seek IDL.

-password leaking was a good thing for me. Easy on the ban hammers, folks. otherwise I'd have been far more alienated from dooms current community

-perhaps invent the "kid's meal" equivalent for a priv server-but lets get our priorities straight and double the player-base first.

Doom is a kind of an mmo. New players are probably going to require our patience and a few "power leveling" techniques. It's difficult getting people in, when we're too powerful

From everyone who knows me on TS as the main person who flips when he gets a clueless player on his team, I'd love to take number 3,
or honestly any option but 4; I just want this "new direction" to keep going that way for a long time, instead of just dying back to "public priv" in like a month or two
Edit:

RedShirt wrote: If a new player joins and just all of a sudden gets kicked its more or less just gonna make them shy away from it. If that keeps happening then the old priv players are gonna get bored playing with the same people every day and probably and stop playing (like myself) We need some variety and new blood. Besides I've always seen priv as a place for players to relax in a semi-competitive environment. If you want to play in a super uber elitist environment, then by all means, join the IDL.

1.I'm all up for new blood and all, but it'd be a little nice if the new people had an actual clue of how priv ran, and got to know which players are good to pick early and which aren't. They shouldn't first time-priv and then like pick someone like me [/low self-asteem] over someone like jenova/Ros/nameplayerbetterthanme and then result in some stacked ass team.
2.No