Account system discussion

[yoni0505]

I would not like an account system because from my experience with introducing friends to Zandronum, they have enough problems with setting it up, and signing up a new account makes the process just more painful.

Other then that accounts aren't really useful, really.

If you want to save information with game modes, do it in the game mode itself.
Take for example GTA SAMP, the multiplayer mode for GTA:SA. There's no official account system, but game modes integrate their own system.
So just make an addon that let you save info, like integrating SQL or something.

For account approval for servers there's that special feature called "password". Does the job just right.

For "Friend Finding" I'd just use 3rd program like Skype or Steam, which I already have my friends on these programs already.

[Torr Samaho]

It might also be beneficial to keep separate the Login Server and the Master Server binaries to allow easy modifications and redistribution, so that servers can use their own Log Ins (clans or Priv for example, or even if MM8BDM or some such similar occurance uses Zandronum 1.x)

I think it's better to only have one log in server (possibly with mirrors) than using multiple login servers. Creating one account is already annoying enough for some people, creating multiple accounts just to play on different servers and different mods IMHO is atrocious. priv servers could simply have a whitelist of those accounts that are allowed to join in case they only want to allow selected people to connect.

Other then that accounts aren't really useful, really.

How do you propose to solve the range ban problems without withlisting people using accounts?

[Lord_of_D:]

sounds good, also, this may help with the security

[Medicris]

I wonder if the accounts could actually store your personal user settings, like binds, mouse and player settings.

Also unrelated, but I'd still push for Zan to come with WASD+mouse-based controls by default since it is a multiplayer-oriented port and needing to tell new guys to "set up their mouse" is getting pretty stale. Its driven away more people than I'd like to count, when they come in and get mauled by guys with mice and don't know why.

[Catastrophe]

I wonder if the accounts could actually store your personal user settings, like binds, mouse and player settings.

Also unrelated, but I'd still push for Zan to come with WASD+mouse-based controls by default since it is a multiplayer-oriented port and needing to tell new guys to "set up their mouse" is getting pretty stale. Its driven away more people than I'd like to count, when they come in and get mauled by guys with mice and don't know why.

http://zandronum.com/tracker/view.php?id=978

[Watermelon]

I would not like an account system because from my experience with introducing friends to Zandronum, they have enough problems with setting it up, and signing up a new account makes the process just more painful.

It's not mandatory so no one needs to sign up, and anyone can join a server without an account.

Other then that accounts aren't really useful, really.

Yes they are as stated multiple times throughout the thread with reasons why (I suggest refreshing yourself with the OP)

If you want to save information with game modes, do it in the game mode itself.
Take for example GTA SAMP, the multiplayer mode for GTA:SA. There's no official account system, but game modes integrate their own system.
So just make an addon that let you save info, like integrating SQL or something.

The addon you propose requires either an ACS plugin and proper RCON Utility plugin, or a modified binary. I did the first route and it took thousands upon thousands of lines of code, and is even then after implementation still subject to some problems, or you can do a binary release (which means everyone has to DL it and then we get into forked versions and it becomes a mess really quickly). So it's pretty obvious that putting these features into the main build is the best route.

For account approval for servers there's that special feature called "password". Does the job just right.

If you ever actually played on passworded servers you'd know they just get leaked all the time anyways.
In fact, it was so bad here that Konar had to make his own build to stop the problem.


Plus you don't address one of the main reasons we want it, which is what Torr proposed to you in another post.

[Llewellyn]

The addon you propose requires either an ACS plugin and proper RCON Utility plugin, or a modified binary. I did the first route and it took thousands upon thousands of lines of code, and is even then after implementation still subject to some problems, or you can do a binary release (which means everyone has to DL it and then we get into forked versions and it becomes a mess really quickly). So it's pretty obvious that putting these features into the main build is the best route.

Technically you can make an ACS only system that stores information from unique users inbetween sessions without any addons. I did it once.
Both clients and server have a config that you can write and read data from. You can give each client a unique identifier, and then check for said identifier on join, if they don't have one, give them a new one, if they have one use it. The only problem is that someone can share their "UniqueID" with someone else, like letting someone play with your account. All data is stored on the server side, the client only has the UniqueID so he cannot cheat without using someone else's account.

[yoni0505]

How do you propose to solve the range ban problems without withlisting people using accounts?

Local accounts, Local bans.
Like in GTA:SA MP.
No silly nickname/IP ban system. (wtf seriously?)

Also it's possible to make a 3rd party cross-server ban addon. I think CS:S have have such a mod.
Servers have the choice to use it or not, and could even allow which type of bans to accept (for example only block cheaters).

Other then that I don't see what's the point to ban someone from playing on all servers?
First of all if there was an account system a person can just open a new account.

Other then that and most importantly, if he's not welcome on your server it doesn't mean he won't be welcome on other servers.

This master ban thing seems to me too totalitarian.
Just quit doing it and you can solve the problem right away.

Technically you can make an ACS only system that stores information from unique users inbetween sessions without any addons. I did it once.
Both clients and server have a config that you can write and read data from. You can give each client a unique identifier, and then check for said identifier on join, if they don't have one, give them a new one, if they have one use it. The only problem is that someone can share their "UniqueID" with someone else, like letting someone play with your account. All data is stored on the server side, the client only has the UniqueID so he cannot cheat without using someone else's account.

You use passwords to confirm the user's identity.
each UID got it's password which the user register on his first time, and later have to login with.
Can be done with a chat command.
Again, like in GTA:SA MP.

You can even take it a step further and create a client-side token, like an internet cookie, that will remember the user, so the user won't have to login every time.

[Ænima]

The client can't be trusted with anything of importance.

[mifu]

yoni0505. There is a good reason why there is a such thing as a master ban. I am not even going to explain it to you except to tell you to read up on the rules which can be found on the forums.

The reason the account thing has been bought up is because of 2 reasons.

1. The way we ban people now.. is shit. Even the server admins can ban innocent players by accident just to keep one troll out. Something that should not happen, and something a server admin should have to tend to every time

2. Stat keeping. Hell it can even open up possibles like a website showing the best flag runner on a particular server or whatever.

It is all good and well that you say that local bans/accounts would do fine, but let me remind you that there was a particular server admin back in the day who kinda well... decided to not ban anyone. Regardless of the server admin banning people localy or not, what if there is a server cluster that you played on every day, then find out that he endorses cheaters/trolls/impersonators w/e comes out of the blue moon, would you still play on that server or would you go somewhere else? (bearing in mind that he may be hosting good things or your fav wad, and happens to be the only server admin doing so)

Having an account system is going to benefit server admins. What it will need however is to make it so the account name is traceable like how an ip address is. And it should keep the IP address in record so it wont allow another account to be made. Thats how we can avoid the "someone can just make an new account" issue you bought up.

Anyhoo, I agree with this

[yoni0505]

To Mifu,

The only reason I would not play on a server is cheaters.
I don't care about impersonators because hell if I remember a single nickname of a player I've played with.
And about trolls, how can someone troll in this game? Spam the chat?

A local accounts system can still be used to block cheaters.

You know what? We can also have 3rd party cross-server account systems, which servers may join or not.
This way you don't force servers to have an account system, and on the other hand servers may choose to join one in order to keep out cheaters or any other unwelcomed players.
This could be making the official account system optional, and making the server capable of joining different account systems, or having it's own.

The client can't be trusted with anything of importance.

Nothing of importance is client side.

[Mechromancer]

This master ban thing seems to me too totalitarian.
Just quit doing it and you can solve the problem right away.

So, let's say that Callum Sanderson decided to try and come to a server and start trolling. We ban his nickname, and do you know what would happen? He'd change his nickname and come back. We IP ban him, and he simply gets his IP to shift, because god bless dynamic IP addresses. Do you have a better solution that doesn't involve /not/ banning somebody?

[Misha]

Oh dear god, it's 2010 all over again.

[Spottswoode]

1.Servers have the choice to use it or not, and could even allow which type of bans to accept (for example only block cheaters).

2.Other then that I don't see what's the point to ban someone from playing on all servers?
3.First of all if there was an account system a person can just open a new account.

4.Other then that and most importantly, if he's not welcome on your server it doesn't mean he won't be welcome on other servers.

1.First of all, NOBODY here has put forth mandatory requirements for accounts in their ideas. It is not only unnecessary, it's just plain stupid. The account system is designed to benefit servers that elect to use it by freeing up the admin of the server to allow who he wants to play instead of using passwords or banning a fuckload of people. I'll say it again, NOBODY has suggested or wants a mandatory account system.
2. Ever heard of Mr. Cheater? While he technically was never caught cheating (to my knowledge) he was/is enough of a disruption to the fun around here to piss off damn near everyone he came into contact with. He was even permabanned from the chat server skulltag was using at the time. Banning people like that from most if not all servers can have numerous benefits to the community. Now, it's true not every troll is like Mr. Cheater, but they are bad enough sometimes that the community wants to ban them.
3. Acknowledged, but there are other control methods to counter act that possibility. The last thing we should be worried about is people having 5 accounts because we can at least identify and ban those accounts. Even if that fails, we can resort to ip bans.
4. That's kind of the point of the system. We WANT to allow people to choose who can and cannot be admitted on their own servers. A total ban from all servers is impractical and unnecessary.

[yoni0505]

This master ban thing seems to me too totalitarian.
Just quit doing it and you can solve the problem right away.

So, let's say that Callum Sanderson decided to try and come to a server and start trolling. We ban his nickname, and do you know what would happen? He'd change his nickname and come back. We IP ban him, and he simply gets his IP to shift, because god bless dynamic IP addresses. Do you have a better solution that doesn't involve /not/ banning somebody?

And account system will keep someone out? No.

You want to avoid being "trolled" by players (text messages?), add ignore player feature.

I really can't understand how can you get "trolled" in this game.

[Spottswoode]

Typing rude messages isn't the only way to be an asshole in a video game. And if you believe an ignore feature is sufficient to stop trolls you clearly misunderstand the nature of trolls. If there is a way to be a dickwad you can rest assured a troll will eventually find a way to do it in virtually any circumstance you can think of.

[mifu]

Decay is right. While everyone here is entitled to their own opinion and all, your arguments here are lacking that foundation. You're in need of a History of skulltag/zandronum 101 lesson.

Here is some advice yoni, research things before you try to argue with someone here in regards to serious stuff like this that could change the community and the way it works.

Torr does not want to use the IP ban system anymore because if we ranged ban someone (this includes the local server) you would of banned a lot more people then intended. Hence why we should get an account system up for the servers who want to take advantage of this.

tl;dr? Read Decays and Spottswoode's latest posts and take them to heart, and be sure to research things before you swing one way here, it will help you alot.

[Eonfge]

I love account systems, but maybe it should be optional to have an account rather than forced to use an account.

Agree

I voted that I do not support the system. I am not completely against it, but it should at all times be optional. There are multiple downsides to a mandatory system:

• Centralized control. One server decides for all, which is bad. Servers should decide for them self by what rules they play.
• Barrier of entry. Many people never sign up for online games and making an account before you've ever seen the game is very punishing.
• Security responsibility. Once you store user data like names and passwords, you are responsible to them and should protect them.
• Right of anonimity. People should have the right to go through our community in anonimity, including aliases and VPNs.

If there comes a server side system that allows mods to create accounts or store user data, I think it's very cool. Adding such support to ACS script would be really nice. On the other hand, I do not want this to be forced from the master server, centralized in one database or mandatory before people can play Zandronum.

Edit:

The only reason why I personally consider an account system is to resolve the ban problems. Any other features are up for discussion. In fact, I strongly oppose any kind of global tracking or stats system. The login server should only handle the authentication and not track anything (only exception is information necessary to handle the login and bans).

I would also propose three client settings:

• no login (default)
• anonymous login
• full login

The first case is pretty self explanatory. In the second and third case the client logs into the login server (this of course reveals its identity to the login server) and the login server then hands a session token (likely it will be a good idea to tie the token to the client's IP) to the client. When a client logs into a game server it sends the session token to the game server. The game server then asks the login server whether the session token is valid.

In the "anonymous login" case, the login server will only return yes or no, it will not reveal the identity aka account name of the client. This is enough to allow people in a range ban to enter the server and completely prevents the game server from keeping any stats.

In the "full login" case, in addition to yes or no, the login server also sends a unique account identifier (possibly the account name) to the game server, allowing the server to identify individuals and to keep stats for whatever reason locally on the server.

Note that it's very important that the clients never send their authentication credentials to any game server. They only send the session token obtained from the login server.

Looking at your words of wisdom, I agree with this solution for server authentication.

I still believe that anything more then checking bans, is the server responsibility. I would certainly like it if ACS would support creating accounts, storing progress and inventory. On the other hand, I rather not see it being used in Zdwars.

[Simk]

I love this.

[Frits]

Already pre-ordered my platinum account.