Brutal Doom: Overdone or underdone?

[General Mike]

Well glad to see this has become quite a debate on things such as Macs instead of Brutal Doom, which is what this topic was originally designated for.

[XCOPY]

It's a mod. I like mods. I play mods. If mod is fun, I play, else, I stop playing in 1 minute at most.

Simple.

"It's a great mod, I like it."

[Toumal]

Xcopy, you've always been my favorite dos command. And I can only copy your statement ;)

[Ch0wW]

Overrated? A little too much imhafo. it's fun, but it's really boring after a while. You cannot see any playthrough of Doom without actually having that shit.
Needs to update things? Please think of older PCs.

[Lollipop]

I noticed today you say everything is boring with only few exceptions. Your view look very biased.
Playthroughs are made with brutaldoom because those who actually make those playthroughs like brutaldoom.

On the old pc part, all there is to say is get a new pc, simple as that.

This thread should die though, it is useless and nothing good comes from it.

[ibm5155]

I noticed today you say everything is boring with only few exceptions. Your view look very biased.
Playthroughs are made with brutaldoom because those who actually make those playthroughs like brutaldoom.

On the old pc part, all there is to say is get a new pc, simple as that.

This thread should die though, it is useless and nothing good comes from it.

It's a mod. I like mods. I play mods. If mod is fun, I play, else, I stop playing in 1 minute at most.

Simple.

"It's a great mod, I like it."

Two ideas that resume what do I think

[Toumal]

What I don't get is the "get it out of the doom community" option.

Suppose the majority votes for this. What will happen? Will the people who like the mod stop playing it out of peer pressure? Will server operators stop running brutal doom servers?

I can tell you right away that regardless of some forum poll, I'm not gonna throw Brutal Doom off of our server cluster.


So yeah, I support a thread lock.

[-Jes-]

What I don't get is the "get it out of the doom community" option.

Suppose the majority votes for this. What will happen?

Absolutely nothing.

Zandronum's forum users are hardly any form of 'majority' in the larger, highly fractured doom community that mostly consists of people who read a doom-related news article maybe once every two years and never connect to any of the three mp ports' master server.

See most livestreamers/youtube lp'ers.

Nevermind the fact that, on a purely objective standpoint, such an action would serve literally no purpose around here. If local people don't like it, there's plenty of other servers pandering to their interests.

Otherwise, Megaman 8bit Deathmatch would've been masterbanned years ago.

[Medicris]

I can tell you right away that regardless of some forum poll, I'm not gonna throw Brutal Doom off of our server cluster.


So yeah, I support a thread lock.

Wow. "I don't like the idea of an option on the poll, so can this thread be locked?"

In all seriousness, there is some people with the sentiment that it's monopolizing the mod scene and I can somewhat understand that. There are actually people who go "Is it compatible with Brutal Doom? No? Then fuck your mod, not worth my time". If I were a serious modder, I wouldn't like having that said to me either. That, and it's hard for other mods to get much exposure since the uninformed public thinks the whole Doom modding scene is just Brutal Doom, since that's all that has coverage on various sites. This also discourages new content.

Nothing will happen from some poll, because everyone hosts what they like, and no one else can do anything about it. If it's not played, then it won't be hosted. Brutal Doom is played in spite of any arbitrary forum poll, so it won't stop being hosted. No need to be that melodramatic about that part.

[Toumal]

So yeah, I support a thread lock.

Wow. "I don't like the idea of an option on the poll, so can this thread be locked?"

This isn't about me not "liking the idea". There was no idea. Only the question what we think about that mod, with a poll option that suggests a non-realistic consequence.

In all seriousness, there is some people...

Who? (serious question btw!)

...with the sentiment that it's monopolizing the mod scene and I can somewhat understand that. There are actually people who go "Is it compatible with Brutal Doom? No? Then fuck your mod, not worth my time". If I were a serious modder, I wouldn't like having that said to me either. That, and it's hard for other mods to get much exposure since the uninformed public thinks the whole Doom modding scene is just Brutal Doom, since that's all that has coverage on various sites. This also discourages new content.

I personally brought 4 people back/into playing zandronum online. Not just with Brutal Doom, but for 2 of them it was the major factor (the others were more into RGA/RGH and AOW2). I also don't agree that the existence or popularity of brutal doom hurts the creation of new content. Why? How? I'm thinking about doing a little mod myself, and if anything Brutal Doom gave me the appetite.
And again you can't "ask" for something to be less popular.

Also regarding popularity, have you checked the serverlist lately? Because the numbers kinda say that we should talk about RGA sometime...

Brutal Doom is played in spite of any arbitrary forum poll, so it won't stop being hosted. No need to be that melodramatic about that part.

Tell that to the OP who put "get it out of the doom community" into the poll options. I guess a thread about specifics regarding BrutalDoom would be something worthwhile, like, do we really need the gameplay changes on top of the gore, other changes to the formula, etc.
Just asking whether one likes or dislikes something... What's the point? Not everyone likes AOW2. Not everyone likes whodunit. Not everyone likes ZH or Shotgun Frenzy. Some people do, and they play these things. This isn't being melodramatic, this is just me asking "...and?"

And I personally am convinced that the more varied mods, the more players, and the better for Zandronum and Doom as a whole.

[-Jes-]

Only the question what we think about that mod, with a poll option that suggests a non-realistic consequence.

Seriously? It's a consequence-free, flair-texted opinion poll by a guy who is far from a regular around here.

No offense, but this isn't SoFurry and similar where the spectrum of criticism is entirely confined to "Good" and "Good!" and anything beyond that is considered hating.
He may have chosen to word his 'bad' option rather aggressively, but that's all there's to it. If you expect anyone here to balk at this, you may have come to the wrong place. Harsher opinions have been flung at AOW2, ZH and MM8BDM on a weekly basis for years now and just about nothing has come of it.
Hell, even BestEver server hosting has taken excessive flak in the past, and look at what's happened to them; Absolutely Nothing!

Because the numbers kinda say that we should talk about RGA sometime...

OP already did. And that thread was about as useful as this one.

Hint, it wasn't.

[Toumal]

No offense, but this isn't SoFurry and similar where the spectrum of criticism is entirely confined to "Good" and "Good!" and anything beyond that is considered hating.

*shrugs* There are people who want honest criticism and suggestions, others not so much. Same as everywhere else. We're not stifling criticism. We do moderate people being dicks to other users though.

He may have chosen to word his 'bad' option rather aggressively, but that's all there's to it. If you expect anyone here to balk at this, you may have come to the wrong place.

Look, I said I support a thread lock. And that's all there is to it. There's no balking or emotional involvement from my side.

Because the numbers kinda say that we should talk about RGA sometime...

OP already did. And that thread was about as useful as this one.

Hint, it wasn't.

Exactly my point. So it seems we are in agreement after all ;)

[Ænima]

In all seriousness, there is some people with the sentiment that it's monopolizing the mod scene and I can somewhat understand that. There are actually people who go "Is it compatible with Brutal Doom? No? Then fuck your mod, not worth my time".

^THIS.


This is the worst.

[XCOPY]

Just make a better mod targeted to such audience. There is nothing stopping you for doing so, AFAIK.

[Ænima]

Just make a better mod--

Oh, so "compatible with Brutal Doom" automatically makes a "better" mod?

--targeted to such audience.

Why should I have to? Why should I have to cater to a group of players who are only here because they saw a Brutal Doom playthrough on YouTube?

I'll make whatever kind of mods I want. I don't care if my "target audience" is smaller because BD players aren't a part of it. I don't care about popularity, I just want to make a fun mod that at least gets a little bit of play and attention.

[Medicris]

This isn't about me not "liking the idea". There was no idea. Only the question what we think about that mod, with a poll option that suggests a non-realistic consequence.

Personally, that's still a bit of a stretch to warrant a lock of the whole discussion over a poll option.
EDIT: I see this was already taken care of.

In all seriousness, there is some people with the sentiment that it's monopolizing the mod scene and I can somewhat understand that.

Who? (serious question btw!)

I'm sorry, but don't expect me to start listing names and pointing fingers of every person I've seen say so. They can speak up if they like, but they are definitely out there.

I personally brought 4 people back/into playing zandronum online. Not just with Brutal Doom, but for 2 of them it was the major factor (the others were more into RGA/RGH and AOW2). I also don't agree that the existence or popularity of brutal doom hurts the creation of new content. Why? How? I'm thinking about doing a little mod myself, and if anything Brutal Doom gave me the appetite.
And again you can't "ask" for something to be less popular.

I wouldn't "ask" for it to be less popular, and find it completely laughable to do so. People can (and should) play whatever that want.

However, while it may be true that you actually took the time to show "that guy who hasn't played Doom in 10 years" that there are mods other than BD, chances are if you hadn't such a person would stumble upon it on something like ModDB or the many gaming blogs/news outlets/Youtube videos first. This first impression can result in a lack of awareness of the wider mod base, and thus less of an audience for modders to make content for, thus less desire to do so, along with such players comparing everything to BD. "In the shadow of the giant", they say. With this mindset is how these anti-BD people perceive it as monopolization, and while I think those people are completely exaggerating, it's plausible that this does happen on a small scale.

Also regarding popularity, have you checked the serverlist lately? Because the numbers kinda say that we should talk about RGA sometime...

I'd say that's another topic for another time. Remember, however, that the Doom community at large is far more vast than Z&. There's a very large portion who've never set foot in a multiplayer port.

Tell that to the OP who put "get it out of the doom community" into the poll options. I guess a thread about specifics regarding BrutalDoom would be something worthwhile, like, do we really need the gameplay changes on top of the gore, other changes to the formula, etc.
Just asking whether one likes or dislikes something... What's the point? Not everyone likes AOW2. Not everyone likes whodunit. Not everyone likes ZH or Shotgun Frenzy. Some people do, and they play these things. This isn't being melodramatic, this is just me asking "...and?"

Understandable, thanks for elaborating. The way you worded yourself defying public opinion just sounded like "I don't give a damn what anyone thinks, I'll never take down Brutal Doom!"

Well, that and the idea that players and server operators are going to get scared of a poll where people say "I don't like <thing>" was a pretty long stretch.

And I personally am convinced that the more varied mods, the more players, and the better for Zandronum and Doom as a whole.

Well said.

[Cruduxy]

This isn't just strict to brutal.. There is way too many players who start talking stuff they have no idea about and comparing mods randomly to others that are just completely unrelated... If you don't like a mod that doesn't give you the right to stay in server and annoy everyone hoping some will leave it and join the server you like!

Offtopic : Survival servers that gain a lot of players rarely -if ever- have brutal doom.. You like using it in videos but there are other mods stealing players into a different gameplay front... maybe just maybe make a video using those and see what happens? -Dem modders why u hate making a thread for your mods here-

[Toumal]

I do think there's one point that could be raised, and it regards something that Brutal Doom does very good and which, I believe, is something vanilla doom and a lot of mods lack: Weapon feedback.

Arguably one of the biggest contrasts when playing regular doom vs. brutal doom is the feel of "heft" both in terms of weapon handling, shot feedback and bullet impact. Sure the gore adds to it, but I think if someone asks for other mods to be "compatible" with brutal doom, they might just be lusting for better weapon feedback. Now this isn't me calling out specific mods. I just noticed that playing shotgun frenzy can feel a bit disconnected because it's sometimes difficult to judge whether you're hurting an enemy or not. I'm also not asking for other mods to be more like Brutal Doom, mind you. I like variety, and I'd hate for every mod to suddenly "contain" brutal doom. That'd grow old really fast.

[XCOPY]

> Implying that a better mod have to be brutal doom compatible.

Ænima, I invite you to re-read my posts. My last one was targetted specifically to any modder who feels annoyed by brutal doom's popularity and/or players (or any other obscure reason). It seems this is not your case (while you agreeing with the "monopolizing" part makes me confused and raises an eyebrow ) but if a modder's issue is the player base, don't blame brutal doom's existence (same argument about COD, CS and other games where people behaves aggressively towards others, mostly). If your target audience is not brutal doom players, you shouldn't even care the comments regarding compatibility, ignore them instead. To summarize:

I'm also not asking for other mods to be more like Brutal Doom, mind you. I like variety, and I'd hate for every mod to suddenly "contain" brutal doom. That'd grow old really fast.

_______________

Now...

Voted "get it out" simply and just because of all the idiots (including the author IIRC) who keep trying to use this argument in their ignorance.

Does it mean that the mod itself insult you all the time and behaves just like any idiot towards you? Seriously, author is completely unrelated to how the mod behaves, just like it's player base.

[Qent]

What I don't get is the "get it out of the doom community" option.

Suppose the majority votes for this. What will happen? Will the people who like the mod stop playing it out of peer pressure? Will server operators stop running brutal doom servers?

I can tell you right away that regardless of some forum poll, I'm not gonna throw Brutal Doom off of our server cluster.

Don't worry, polls are just a quick way to aggregate a bunch of people's opinions without any obligation to take action on them.

So yeah, I support a thread lock.

If you really think one is needed, then you need to use the report post feature, or moderators will probably never know.

Also changed my vote because I read that wrong.