Wheres the clan scrims?

[Ænima]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't several moderators including Cyber say that they would allow drama and "smack talk" in the competitive section as long as it was relevant to the challenge?

Yes but it has gotten to the point that everyone is friends with everyone or they're afriad of shit talking.

Perhaps. The only people I still see doing it are JohnZombie and SwiftShot. Then again i don't lurk the clans section as much as every other section so there's a good chance i miss a lot. :p

Umm, i'm far too busy to shit talk anyone on a game i play about twice a month. I said something about nati punching himself once, but thats all i can remember. Aslong as i don't read any wannabe pony molestering posts on here i'm usually quite humble and keep myself to myself

Like i said, i don't lurk the competitive threads that often, i was just pointing out something i had noticed in the semi-recent past.


BTW I'm in no way saying that you did something bad, so I'm sorry if my post seemed like I was pointing fingers at you.

[legion]

as one of the competitive moderators I personally have no problem with drama/trash talk as long as its not dumb as fuck

plus the rules that I laid out some time ago allow this anyway
(please view http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=133 for details)

[one_Two]

On top of that, they don't even use their top lineup for "tough" challenges, they use whatever they have and call it a day.

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

[Hammerfest-]

On top of that, they don't even use their top lineup for "tough" challenges, they use whatever they have and call it a day.

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

Because they may be available most of the time? Might as well suck it up and get better if you wanna keep playing clans.

[one_Two]

On top of that, they don't even use their top lineup for "tough" challenges, they use whatever they have and call it a day.

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

Because they may be available most of the time? Might as well suck it up and get better if you wanna keep playing clans.

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

[Impact]

On top of that, they don't even use their top lineup for "tough" challenges, they use whatever they have and call it a day.

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

Because they may be available most of the time? Might as well suck it up and get better if you wanna keep playing clans.

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

How else do people improve without practice?

Also damn don't let the clan scene die off I only just got here

[one_Two]

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

Because they may be available most of the time? Might as well suck it up and get better if you wanna keep playing clans.

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

How else do people improve without practice?

Also damn don't let the clan scene die off I only just got here

No he said "get better if you wanna keep playing clans", which doesn't make much sense as any clan of any skill level is free to scrim. Unless he thinks that we'd give up because we keep losing? Idk.

[Hammerfest-]

On top of that, they don't even use their top lineup for "tough" challenges, they use whatever they have and call it a day.

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

Because they may be available most of the time? Might as well suck it up and get better if you wanna keep playing clans.

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

Are you done being a little butthurt there? You're the one that stated that you always end up playing Ide and HTG in a scrim, all I'm saying is to suck it up if you're continually playing the same people or find another clan to scrim with.

[IdeIdoom]

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

1. If I wasn't lagging, we'd still kick your ass, though, due to moving to a new place, consequences came.
2. HTG is being inactive lately so that means we won't be playing him as much and, maybe, myself too since I have to focus on high school.
3. We do play the others, but 1 by 1 or 2 by 2 (in case of 3's or 4's). Though, we play as well since we make up the the rest of the team for the scrim.

[Iced]

On top of that, they don't even use their top lineup for "tough" challenges, they use whatever they have and call it a day.

Because they may *not* be available most of the time?

I eliminated the middle man for you. Our clan has 10 members, only about half of which are active enough to scrim every other day. Also, the userbase here is way too small to promote scrimmages as the pinnacle of competition. Since there are so few users (compared to something like TF2 or COD), there are wider gaps in skill level. Of course, it would be nice if clans were structured like teams in private CTF, and members were "drafted" into particular spots in rosters- it would create a much more average "average" skill. But of course, people who play well almost always want to play with other people who play well, and this leads to different clans having wildly different "average" skill levels.

I really do believe it's not good for competition if you can definitely rank each clan, and say X clan is #1, while Y clan is #2, and Z clan is #3. We know Pro is better than N. We know TM is better than VGL. We know R is better than AV. You can pretty much have a list of clans in order from best to worst. And this, obviously, propagates the idea that, yes, certain clans can improve, but they'll almost definitely never propel into that #1 spot. The ability of a clan is almost always defined when the clan itself is made, or when the members congregate.

So to answer the question, the clan scrims are going on, but the userbase is just too small. It prohibits growth, which, in turn, hinders performance. It also enacts time restrictions. Sure, we could start scheduling matches, but people have real life, and issues, and things may come up when they're not expected. Having a larger clan roster would help, because at LEAST 3 people should be on at that point.

But then again, look at Pro

[Impact]

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

1. If I wasn't lagging, we'd still kick your ass, though, due to moving to a new place, consequences came.
2. HTG is being inactive lately so that means we won't be playing him as much and, maybe, myself too since I have to focus on high school.
3. We do play the others, but 1 by 1 or 2 by 2 (in case of 3's or 4's). Though, we play as well since we make up the the rest of the team for the scrim.

I reckon the lagging gives you a slight evasive advantage which is what one_Two was getting at

And from what I saw all hammer was saying was something like "You'll have to put up with it if you want to improve"

[Qent]

Yet we always end up playing a team consisting of at least HTG and Ide :/

Because they may be available most of the time? Might as well suck it up and get better if you wanna keep playing clans.

Fuck you on about? getting better has nothing to do with our continued playing of clans. I was being kinda jovial actually but it is true, we often play HTG their best player and Ide their laggiest player, even when they have others on, not complaining, just how it is.

Are you done being a little butthurt there? You're the one that stated that you always end up playing Ide and HTG in a scrim, all I'm saying is to suck it up if you're continually playing the same people or find another clan to scrim with.

I think you kind of missed his point, which was that although -- as Catastrophe said -- VGL does not put their best lineup forward every time, they somehow end up very close to it every game, and therefore it is nothing to brag about.

That isn't really a contradiction, since they can use "whatever they have" and still end up near their top lineup if their best players are their most active.

[Torvald]

I really agree with Iced's post. There's a lot of factors that come in to play with this, and the most notable one being is the player-base - It's too small. There were discussions brought up about this before involving notions about how to increase the player size, but it's a tricky thing. I'd wet my pants to see a mass influx of competitive clans, but it's really hard when Zandronum harbors a grand total of roughly 500 active players - with the majority of them being mod based. Variety is always nice, and as much as I love scrimming against TM or other clans, it starts to become repetitive after a while. New clans come and go but it's the same members just being recycled with a different clan tag or lineup. Mr Cheater also brought up a notable point: Clans like TM, R, & PRO have a lot of members from early to late 20's - most of whom are either working, have school, or are just getting bored of Doom in general. What keeps us together is that we pal around outside of doom, and I believe the point being made in this thread was that most clans will last longer if it's based around friendship instead of pure competitive drive.

Drama & trash talk is also a touchy subject if it hasn't been made obvious already, because there's a grey line of what's considered acceptable and unacceptable. I'm all for there being rivalry against clans, but there comes a point where it stops being fun and it turns into turmoil outside of competitive play. In my opinion a good example of motivation and trash talking would come from PRO & R, there's a lot of crap thrown between us about who's bad, who leaves D and who's the best player, but none of us really hate each other to the extreme of wanting said player exiled. Again, I'm all for it, but like some administrators, there's hesitation there with the potential for everything to get out of hand exponentially.


If we want more clans, we need more competitive players. To get more competitive players, we need a bigger player base - and to get a bigger player base would require something to the effect of advertising outside of doom. Just my $0.02

[Shane]

I'm not asking for more activity from our players, I'm tackling how most of our competitive players are very close minded. Theres so many unknown players out there willing to make that leap towards competition just to see what it's like or are tired of being in the shadows and have a go at other skillsets. Theres not so much recruiting as there is recycling the old players around, and eventually getting an old face to come around or adding inactive members to a clan.

[IdeIdoom]

From what I've seen, VGL is invite-only, N has alot of people, but I dunno if it's full.
Delt@, IDP and HG aren't competitive at all.
J, DD and ARG still offer a chance into competition.
1C and S do tests so those who are new won't be able to get in easily.
EL gets people who are basically good friends with them and skilled.
AV might recruit new people but I dunno.
As for TM, PRO, A3 and R, you know the answer.

[Prospekt]

Gonna throw in my penny for the net worth.

Being someone who went online two years ago with a game I've been playing for 20 years, I think I can look at the scene with somewhat objective eyes. Being competitive, wether it's in sports or in Doom, requires a certain amount of winner instinct and we all have it to varying degrees. I, myself, started off really loving all the dueling and CTF going on with this game and I met a lot of friendly and non-friendly people whilst doing it. The problem for me was always that I thought the ego of a lot of people (and clans alike) started to really cringe the playing for me. I never really got the feeling that someone was like "hey, keep it up, keep working at it and you'll get the hang of it". It was always about winning. That's why I stick to duels nowadays, because I can play good one day, bad the other, still have fun and nobody but me would care. For me, it should've been the same when going into scrims and being in a clan. Although we are all different and whilst some people might ignite on drama and shit talk, some others certainly do not. I think that's the reason a lot of new guys have left the scene too quick. There will always be better and less skilled clans, but that's not the point. Clans are made up of individuals who needs different kinds of attention to grow and better themselves. Some might need a pat on the shoulder and some might need a challenge thrown in their face. And to find that out, you have to listen. You get interesting by being interested.

A valid point is also the skill difference between clans. Of course R is better than N, but is that really relevant? Going to the tennis court for 7 days a week for 10 years will still not even get you close to beat Roger Federer. Clans who have been playing for years and years with a lot of the same members will OF COURSE be better than newer clans. Why compare? Totally irrelevant. What's relevant is how to make the lesser skilled clans stick around and improve, and that's by giving them some god damn encouragement. All I see around these here parts is talk about how this clan is always owning and that clan is so easily beatable. Well, keep telling the tennis kid to keep working at the court 7 days a week but still stand by the side and shout that he's shit and let's see if he'll beat Federer. Pisses me off.

What still get's my dick hard on this port and having fun is people like Tor-Bjorn, Watermelon, Skinlainen. People that all have been encouraging, showing stuff and just being plain nice.

Just because this is a game doesn't mean that we should forget what common courtesy and friendliness do to people.

[Iced]

Theres so many unknown players out there willing to make that leap towards competition just to see what it's like or are tired of being in the shadows and have a go at other skillsets.

I'm literally challenging you to show me more than 5.

[Shane]

The Truth, waterivesi, HexZerg, Shift, Watakid (who go greenlighted by Jenova), Disfiguring, nub_hat, the list continues each day

[Iced]

Why aren't they trying to play more competitively? I've never seen some of those kids step foot in a duel server, let alone ask for the priv password. Why don't you gather them up and start a clan? That would teach them the basics, and would greenlight them into the competitive scene just like Jenova did Watakid. If you truly think something can be done about this, why aren't you making more of a step towards changing it? And you pointed this question at existing members. I wouldn't start shifting the issue onto people who aren't even in clans in the first place.

[Catastrophe]

They need to be around more. Back in , I used to let anyone I thought was new to Skulltag into my clan and my niceness got abused. Ie, aliasers such as Kalfoxis managed to weasel in. I guess if people didn't alias into other clans back then it wouldn't be much of a problem this day.