Account system discussion

[Ænima]

I vote against this.

Making an account system could lead to players who can't, won't, or don't know how to use the system getting trolled by the 31337 for it. Considering the amount of e-penis that the Skulltag community had, and what happened when MM8BDM experienced an uptick of popularity thanks to a YouTube Bump, I wouldn't want to risk having another way for people to feel superior. Similarly, mods with large numbers of developers like AOW2 (or mods in general, really) could end up having ACS to screw with people the developers don't like. I'm not denying that an account system could be beneficial, but I believe that the Zandronum development team should think long and hard about consequences such as this.

Well as stated before, it probably wouldn't be mandatory, so it's not like we're forcing it on everyone. Also, anybody who uses the new account/stat-saving system as a way to inflate their e-peen is merely cheating themselves. So what if they feel superior? We already have people like that in our community. People who max their stats aren't really going to make things any worse overall, IMO.

[Catastrophe]

I vote against this.

Making an account system could lead to players who can't, won't, or don't know how to use the system getting trolled by the 31337 for it.

...Have you read the thread? If you don't have a registered account you can still play, but it wouldn't save any stats to that name. I don't know how you can get possibly trolled by not having an account, that doesn't make sense. I think people should realize all servers aren't like GvH and AoW.

Considering the amount of e-penis that the Skulltag community had, and what happened when MM8BDM experienced an uptick of popularity thanks to a YouTube Bump, I wouldn't want to risk having another way for people to feel superior.

E-peen? Who the hell says that anymore? This isn't about feeling superior; it's to allow people such as yourself experience great mods that could never be accomplished.

Similarly, mods with large numbers of developers like AOW2 (or mods in general, really) could end up having ACS to screw with people the developers don't like. I'm not denying that an account system could be beneficial, but I believe that the Zandronum development team should think long and hard about consequences such as this.

ACS to screw with the players? You realize people can just simply not play the mod right? Worst case scenario you'd have to redo your config, but that's quite easy.

[skyrimguy]

IF it is optional, I support it.

[Llewellyn]

3 Modes:
A) Boot Non-Logged In
B) Allow Guests, Ask for log-in
C) No login

A) Useful for priv
B) Useful for statsaving mods, ACS user can determine what to do with guests (warn them their stats won't be saved, don't bother with reading stats, etc) and players who have logged in get stats, guests stay anonymous etc.
C) Useful for everything else, I would assume defualt

[Spottswoode]

I'd support this even if it was mandatory. Then again, I am pro-regulation when it comes to communities provided the regulations themselves have checks on them. Banning accounts is where the issue comes into haze for me. Making accounts optional is good, but you really need to make it where it is completely server dominant in the end. This goes back to the Master banlist issue we had in Skulltag.

Edit: I should probably elaborate: some time after Tiger left the Skulltag staff, the master server had deactivated (as is my understanding) a command that forced every server to use the master banlist. The issue was raised as to whether or not the master banlist should be forced on everyone.

I figure it really comes down to the same kind of argument. If the accounts are to function as a control method in addition to whatever else, I for one think that they should be optional on a server basis.

[someoneelse]

I've chosen Skulltag (now Zandronum) over ZDaemon not only because it supported more mods, but also because this global rank system looked like e-peen stroking something that is for sure is fun, but seems to go in the way that is against the spirit of freedom and fun I appreciate.

[IdeIdoom]

I can say I love Llewellyn's idea. Even though people want an account system so people know what people alias as, I don't want a modern ZD .

[Tsukiyomaru0]

I have several reasons to support this idea:
1) Would be much easier to report violators in general. As not all hosts are 100% available at all times
2) The range bans could be lifted to allow a "second chance". Specially to those who did nothing but are trapped in the range because of someone else's mischief.
3) As mentioned, would be easier to track who you want to find.
4) Also would help to control who you want to ignore (The ignored can normally "avoid ignore" with reconnect).
5) Would help in tournaments and the like.

[Torvald]

3 Modes:
A) Boot Non-Logged In
B) Allow Guests, Ask for log-in
C) No login

A) Useful for priv
B) Useful for statsaving mods, ACS user can determine what to do with guests (warn them their stats won't be saved, don't bother with reading stats, etc) and players who have logged in get stats, guests stay anonymous etc.
C) Useful for everything else, I would assume defualt

This.

[Luke]

Account approval
Accounts would be free to make, so it wouldn't change aliasing and such, but it could help with private games where you only want certain people inside. So far Konar got a great system up, but it'd be nice to expand it even further.
This would also help in keeping dynamic IP ban evaders out potentially.

It wouldn't. I evaded a rangeban on ZDaemon and I guarantee that you can evade any range ban as long as someone doesn't "range ban entire cities if he'll have to do it." (I'm talking about him, yes).
And no I'm not bragging about anything only pointing out that the help of such system would be at most a verification from one staff member before allowing The New Account to play; this would just keep people away from the game (I wouldn't have managed to bring that random dude on a requiem server that day if he have had to wait an admin and talk with it to be whitelisted), in my opinion.

But anyway, to give you my Yes or No: I'm with whatever Torr Samaho will desire to do. I trust him and I ask to everyone to follow his decisions even if they crushes with your personal wishes, whatever those will be.
And for everyone who's thinking that I'm doing so: I'm kissing Torr's ass. Yes I am, Yep!

[Torr Samaho]

But anyway, to give you my Yes or No: I'm with whatever Torr Samaho will desire to do. I trust him and I ask to everyone to follow his decisions even if they crushes with your personal wishes, whatever those will be.

Now that's the perfect opportunity to enter the discussion ;).

Seeing how problematic range bans (and blacklist ban approaches in general) are, I'm pretty sure that the only proper way to solve this is it to add some kind of white listing. An account system would fit the bill and we are considering to introduce such a system. The system is still in its planning phases (and everybody is encouraged to participate in its design) and it's not guaranteed that it will ever see the light of day. The only thing that's absolutely certain is, using accounts will be optional (at least as long as I'm around). It's possible that in the end server admins will be able to disallow clients that are not logged in from joining, but that's also a detail up for discussion.

Is anybody interested in helping us to create such a system?

[Torvald]

I'd like to informally volunteer watermelon for the task. Not matter what he says about not being able to help. He's lying.

Joking aside, what would you look for in terms of helping?

[Watermelon]

But anyway, to give you my Yes or No: I'm with whatever Torr Samaho will desire to do. I trust him and I ask to everyone to follow his decisions even if they crushes with your personal wishes, whatever those will be.

Now that's the perfect opportunity to enter the discussion ;).

Seeing how problematic range bans (and blacklist ban approaches in general) are, I'm pretty sure that the only proper way to solve this is it to add some kind of white listing. An account system would fit the bill and we are considering to introduce such a system. The system is still in its planning phases (and everybody is encouraged to participate in its design) and it's not guaranteed that it will ever see the light of day. The only thing that's absolutely certain is, using accounts will be optional (at least as long as I'm around). It's possible that in the end server admins will be able to disallow clients that are not logged in from joining, but that's also a detail up for discussion.

Is anybody interested in helping us to create such a system?

I am, I'll spam you with a PM

[Qent]

I am very eager for both more reliable bans and stat saving for mods, but I do not want people's stats for certain competitive mods to become the de facto standard by which their opinions are valuated. ZDaemon WADs already have too much influence over Zandronum modding and competition IMHO. And really, skill in-game shouldn't be taken to reflect opinions outside the game.

The other thing I fear is registration becoming a barrier to newbies trying to get into Zandronum. Even if it's nominally optional, one could imagine a surge of new mods that are virtually unplayable without an account.

That said, I think I'd support this on principle, because I do not believe that the bad uses to which a technology will be put are enough to make that technology -- or feature in this case -- itself bad.

[Razgriz]

The other thing I fear is registration becoming a barrier to newbies trying to get into Zandronum. Even if it's nominally optional, one could imagine a surge of new mods that are virtually unplayable without an account.

I don't think in the end product the registration process would be so difficult and tedious that new people would have trouble getting through it. I can only think that the only people who would have a problem is people who do not understand the language or the process (ie, foreigners, or kids too young to be playing period (which is a good thing, M rated game + community anyways.))

[Qent]

No matter how easy it is, there will always be some point where registration makes the difference between playing Zandronum or uninstalling it. I'm certain it would have for me, back when I was starting out.

[Medicris]

The other thing I fear is registration becoming a barrier to newbies trying to get into Zandronum. Even if it's nominally optional, one could imagine a surge of new mods that are virtually unplayable without an account.

Honestly, though I see where you're coming from, what kind of person would have trouble making a simple User/Password account? I's so ubiquitous in every walk of life you'd have to be unreasonably stubborn or somehow unable to fill out a two-field form.

I only really see it as a problem if the registration process involved a lengthy waiting time or otherwise being made unable to register and jump into he action.

[Razgriz]

No matter how easy it is, there will always be some point where registration makes the difference between playing Zandronum or uninstalling it. I'm certain it would have for me, back when I was starting out.

There is a raffle for a new car of any choice from a list...
first form is fill in name and address/email
second form is name, address, phone number and a secondary number or cell phone, zip, country, state, county, birthday, email, and maybe even a few other things i cannot remember

how likely is it people will do the first form over the second one? mostly all. why? simple, easy...short...so yes, the easiness does determine the majority of things..and easiness does determine how many people will make an account on zandronum..

[Qent]

I'm not disputing that, but I'm sure there are plenty of people, myself included, who would say "Ooh Zandronum, what's this? Oh I have to register? Never mind," without giving it a second thought. Of course making registration easier would help. The thing is, they could have no idea that they're getting a new car in this raffle.

[Savant]

I'm voting against this for a couple of reasons.

This honestly feels to me like it will just split the community and cause untold amounts of drama also every benefit posted so far is redundant.

Competition seems to be the main goal here, when we have ranks and stats what will happen is people will get more arrogant, spread more negativity and there will be less respect for people who lose more.

And what happens if everyone plays ranked or unranked? You're not getting a game, we'll have elitists who only want to play one way causing further separation though I'm sure you could define this when the server is created I can still see it causing problems.

Another thing about competition I was under the impression that Zdaemon was built for competitive playing whereas Zandronum was mainly development, by implementing stats it becomes counter productive having another server for accounts sending and receiving score information across all servers in use also sounds like a major bandwidth issue and will hinder mods being played for stats It will just become more of a mess to sort through.

There is another thing I just don't understand about stats and that is how you'd intend to save them account wide, given the amount of WADs scoring them all would in itself be a load of work, and trying to score just based off game modes wouldn't be ideal either.

I.E lets say I play skull tag duel maps vs duel32, I have 99 wins on Duel and never play duel32.

Actually if that were the case it would be easy enough to cheat such a system if it could even be called that, I feel that this example be just one of a few topics that would cause unnecessary drama about perceived ranking for one game mode.

The note on private servers is also redundant, if you're running a private server not only do you already have full control to kick or ban people you can choose who you give access too logging in with an account is essentially the same as just putting in a password at the server menu.

Also accounts would eventually become mandatory to avoid area I.P black listings and I don't feel this should be necessary to play online, but maybe I'm wrong on that maybe area black listings will ban accounts too

In conclusion much of the beneficial features of an account are already there the only interesting proposed so far is saving stats for an RPG mod but that's already been done too. I recall a thread back on Skulltag of a Korean Mmo styled doom mod with stats and location being saved in hex after logging the players IP though I don't know how far it got a long.