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Re: Public image

#41

Post by Lollipop » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:45 pm

Maybe allow zanstuff to put things on the front page? That way if they review something real good they could put it on display. Just a thought.

Regarding getting new players into competetive, they just need to be kept at it through some sort of motivation, which can be anything. Spawn protection would just create a bias for the player who had to relearn the game dynamics for not having that, which could be demotivating and frustrating. It's better to learn it correcectly from the start in this case.

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Re: Public image

#42

Post by HTG » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:22 pm

I actually think, despite the current clan scene, new players are starting to get interested again. I've managed to recruit 4 or 5 players who hadn't touched the scene once and now they play it pretty often. Most of these players are in their own environments (gvh, aow etc).

I do think there should be a way to entice new players into playing gamemodes like ctf, dm etc. I might try and get a weekly server running to help with this.

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Re: Public image

#43

Post by Mobius » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:01 pm

Competitive scene only drawn in those interested in fighting in doom, and wholly depends on whether they decide to stay or go. No amount of incentive other than just activity will persuade a user and I speak from both experience as a clan leader and player. A player who cares enough to use his martial skills will stay. It's either you have it or you don't.

The main issue with the competitive scene isn't just new blood. We've always struggled with it because more complicated wads make our shit look obsolete. The issue is having the old guard adapt to the new technologies and possibilities of doom. This includes using GEOMETRICAL gimmicks such as real 3D floors and BREAK AWAY from Odamex dinosaurs choking what could bring in people. That includes dumping boom for good and embrace, at least, Zdoom hexen. Our shit is beyond old at this point and everyone comes to play more ""Complex"" mods. We are competing with that and it's high time we embrace actual New School not Jkist doom.
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Re: Public image

#44

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:10 pm

The day competitive went astray is the day drama went away.

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Re: Public image

#45

Post by stradex » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:10 am

Doom is fun

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Re: Public image

#46

Post by Mobius » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:30 am

slav wrote:
Mobius wrote: The issue is having the old guard adapt to the new technologies and possibilities of doom. This includes using GEOMETRICAL gimmicks such as real 3D floors and BREAK AWAY from Odamex dinosaurs choking what could bring in people.
You cant make much complex maps or rathar gameplay when you have not any special movement (circle jump, not even strafe jumping). So with 3D floors you only got 2 floors where you can fight, but altogether
it will not working. I think the 3D floors are good bonus in doom 2 but if you seriously think it can attract and make some boom on zandronum then GL. LMAO and See ya in that thread in 5 years on same spot. <3
I think only where you can make the 3D floors useful in "competition", is playing some hide and seek or last man standing. Bcz you have actually more space where to hide and some tactics...but this is all...
The only when i was interested in dueling more on zan some others maps than the classic ones was when the rusts and hatred eon wad came on. It was really very good and i think it could attract new players and even OS players, though it needed some better flags on zandronum which was not existant on zandronum. But i think in wad like that should new players or this cry babies like or decay lose hard too. Probably the 29 - -1 results HYPE thanks to armors... :wonk:
Is this Capo or Killstrike? I can't tell, and 3D floors is one of the many benefits of Zdoom hexen or UDMF especially for mappers. MAP04, for example, will play very differently without people's ability to shoot through their bridge things or how collision is handled. Map effects and detail will be beyond whatever people steal from Zdaemon CTF or IDL or WDL wads. A simple platform, which would usually be a scaled up floor, will now have things beneath it. That can change how a map is played entirely. We can even make maps look LESS ugly than they already are, and everything is almost ugly in Doom
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Re: Public image

#47

Post by Zakken » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:51 am

Won't say anything about Capo's terribly conceited post in particular, but there really isn't enough faith in Zandronum's potential for map-making. Imagine if there came to be a CTF mappack with the creativity and hard work that AeonDM had, for example. And that's not just limited to playable maps: hub maps, special effects, scripts, statistics, and I'm sure there are more possibilities than these mentioned that could genuinely revitalise the scene as we know it if applied correctly and en masse.

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Re: Public image

#48

Post by r4z0r » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:24 am

Zakken wrote:Won't say anything about Capo's terribly conceited post in particular, but there really isn't enough faith in Zandronum's potential for map-making. Imagine if there came to be a CTF mappack with the creativity and hard work that AeonDM had, for example. And that's not just limited to playable maps: hub maps, special effects, scripts, statistics, and I'm sure there are more possibilities than these mentioned that could genuinely revitalise the scene as we know it if applied correctly and en masse.
I smell a new mapping project on the rise. Time to whip out my amazing mapping skills?
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Re: Public image

#49

Post by Lollipop » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:01 pm

I suck at mapping but I will gladly contribute to anything ACS related if necessary.

There really is no real reason to limit ourselves here, especially since zandronum is the biggest thing in terms of modded online play, so why not bring what zandronum modding can do to the competetive scene?
Some mods have proven that if we set our minds to it, we can come up with some pretty amazing things if we want to, we just have to do it.

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Re: Public image

#50

Post by Combinebobnt » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:23 pm

ok good ideas guys now like actually make them

ctf packs are hard though hell no. I don't see anything good happening there after chaoscore and whatever wdl concoction. i wonder if there are other possibilities for competition out there besides ctf and poor duel...

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Re: Public image

#51

Post by Konda » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:16 pm

^ aow

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Re: Public image

#52

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:28 pm

The English version of what Bob is saying is that making a CTF pack is a lot of work and making it good is even more difficult. There are a lot of different variables that can make or break a CTF map and constantly moving things and changing designs is tedious. Additionally, you need a lot of testing if you want maps to be top notch. You also have to be able to take harsh criticism and all the yelling players will throw your way during play testing. You'll have to see how the map plays in large games, small games, with average players, with good players and sometimes with no players because no one will want to download your wad to test, especially if you update it a lot.

Then there is the pay off. If the pack is decent, it'll probably be played for FNF once or twice a year. If it's good, it'll be up on the currently empty pub servers. If it's bad, it'll be forgotten just like ProCTF. If you're lucky, one or two maps will be played in Priv or either of the flag Leagues. A lot time and effort for very little return.

Also Konda is right, like 2/3 of the AOW mapset is complete garbage and you're better off making AOW maps. At least there more of scene in AOW than pub CTF.

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Re: Public image

#53

Post by Mobius » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:31 pm

Zakken wrote:Won't say anything about Capo's terribly conceited post in particular, but there really isn't enough faith in Zandronum's potential for map-making. Imagine if there came to be a CTF mappack with the creativity and hard work that AeonDM had, for example. And that's not just limited to playable maps: hub maps, special effects, scripts, statistics, and I'm sure there are more possibilities than these mentioned that could genuinely revitalise the scene as we know it if applied correctly and en masse.
That's true I can't imagine a project that could have benefitted greatly from more updated formats. I mean it isn't like it was being held back and could have been better if the focus wasn't separated or anything. I wonder what group could have achieved this wonderfully.. hmm maybe my point stands and that foregoing dinosaur ports (Zdaemon and Odamex) would have helped such a project greatly. I must be crazy.

to be straight: the only reason no such project exist because the last great project to make a ctf mappack was focused on having MANY ports play it. DBAB and Aeon is a testament to what would happen if MXU/A3 decided to centralize on Zandronum. Revitalizing the scene? It's already too late. The state of the scene is terminal. Any progress it could have made was destroyed prior to IDL coming to Odamex. People lost interest and any time someone even uttered something different or new EVERYONE attacked the idea. Doing it now won't do anything.. nothing will except dumping money into a league and I don't mean some shitty 400 dollar first prize money. I am talking about legitimate big bucks for a whole team making first place. That'd be the only way you can net back the scene from the malcontents that left it this way to begin with which I find pretty amusing honestly.
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Re: Public image

#54

Post by Dynamo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:07 pm

Decay wrote:Hi

I see these last few posts referencing DBAB and AeonDM. Some of it is tied over with that GFA discussion. I’d like to make some input.

Is Zandronum’s DM/Duel/CTF scene held back by “old school” mentalities? Hell yes. Is this in turn affecting projects because “why bother making for zan if people (only allegedly) want multiport?” I think so. Why would people make wicked cool things for Zan if they are bombarded with the (false) belief that nobody will play them? What kinds of projects could be cultivated if people actually were inspired by Zan-central products?

In fact, Rage CTF was only made multiport because it was considered conveniently political at the time. It was never tested once in odamex or zdaemon; we took the stance of “if the port doesn’t crash, it’s probably fine.” Skulltag/Zandronum endured years and years of belittlement (and continues to) when it comes to CTF (and Duel for that matter), with the end result of people not taking it seriously at all. In reality, if there is anybody to blame for the state of zandronum’s CTF scene, it’s all those people who deemed the port not serious or worthy of trying on (pub scrims?). It created a toxic and hostile environment in which only the worst personalities prevail, but of course this is not understood because the very same people who defend the worst are horrid themselves. “Decay, you’re no shining beacon of light” damn straight I’m not, but maybe clue into the fact that my behaviour is literally no different than these people. The only difference is that I’m on a different side of the fence instead of being part of the circle jerk of raid huffers, carpet lint sniffers, bricks-for-brains, and homosexual wannabes.

I would love to make new CTF maps with the same creativity and effort as AeonDM, but I’m in the minority. There’s too much negativity when it comes to making CTF maps, usually for the most trivial of reasons, and what Rust said only adds to it. Most of the people who shit on CTF maps have never made one in their life. I don’t like to say “you can’t criticize a map if you haven’t made one” but they sit back, insult, troll, and spew untold amounts of shit without EVER having to endure it. And guess what, a lot of this is post production, AFTER things could’ve been fixed. Every single project I have worked on I (and others) have actively sought criticism or feedback to make the maps optimal. If I was lucky, 1 or 2 people MIGHT make a few constructive comments, but 99% of the time there is absolutely zero feedback until post production. Hey, if a bunch of people actually supported giving feedback and playtesting, I would totally head another CTF project. But with the lack of... let’s say structural support... it’s 100% not worth the investment, at least in my opinion, and here’s why.

We made DBAB for ourselves. I am very happy that a lot of people have enjoyed playing it in DM and LMS. I am very happy that it was a successful project. But the reason it came out better than a ton of other stuff made recently is because 1) we wanted to try some new things 2) weren’t held back any sort of “oh we need to get people play it on every port because zandronum isn’t serious” (the Diet version was made solely out of spite) and 3) we had a team that was actually invested in feedback. Same thing with AeonDM. Razgriz and I headed it because we had so much fun with DBAB but found we needed an extended maplist (DBAB’s DM strength was only in about 22/33 maps). We did better on it because we learned from DBAB experiences. Hey, find me some dedicated people and I’ll get you some new maps.

Nobody is –invested- in a good, real new CTF mapset, just like virtually nobody is invested in groundbreaking mods or maps anymore. You might claim you want to see something new, but only if other people do it. You want to see more leagues, more players, but hope other people do the reaching out. In short, the majority of the people here are uninspiring, uninspired, and lazy. If you want Zandronum to have a good public image, to have a good CTF league, to have good projects, stop being whiny fucks and complaining about the situation and actually be invested in it.

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Re: Public image

#55

Post by Combinebobnt » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:56 am

posting for banned users? i wonder if capo actually wrote that post...

need zan 3.0 won't matter what the public image is if that doesn't happen (port turns into odamex serverlist...)

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Re: Public image

#56

Post by Mobius » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Combinebobnt wrote:posting for banned users? i wonder if capo actually wrote that post...

need zan 3.0 won't matter what the public image is if that doesn't happen (port turns into odamex serverlist...)
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Re: Public image

#57

Post by Fookerton » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:25 am

Here's a thought: Instead of advertising your latest post filled with needlessly flowery writing on IRC, try to actually help people that ask for help in #zandronum. That'll help out the "image" a whole lot. Instead you have admins berating users for playing mods they don't approve of, and then subject them to inane IRC arguments which amount to nothing more than spam.

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Re: Public image

#58

Post by Konda » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:51 am

Fookerton wrote:Here's a thought: Instead of advertising your latest post filled with needlessly flowery writing on IRC, try to actually help people that ask for help in #zandronum. That'll help out the "image" a whole lot. Instead you have admins berating users for playing mods they don't approve of, and then subject them to inane IRC arguments which amount to nothing more than spam.
Seems like an overly speciffic turn of events for something that's supposed to be happening all the time on IRC and thus impact the "public image". You sure you're not just taking out your frustration over a single incident in this discussion thread?

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Re: Public image

#59

Post by NachtIntellect » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:33 pm

Actually... I am sort of inclined to agree with Fookerton, I too in the past have experienced that on the IRC and it did make me stray from Zandronum for a long time, I have a lot of thoughts and pent up frustration on the matters, I'd always get stuff like "You need to clean up your script" This I can understand but I have read a lot of messy/differently typed scripts without the need for such spacing, if I can read a script that isn't even mine, you should be able to also in general it feels like a let down, people aren't willing to go out of their way to help you and while I feel that is what massively is lacking, I am not saying jump in front of a train just give me a hint and I am good to go, it just really does not help with 1 persons productivity especially if they aspire to make a mod that isn't 100% garbage like a lot of the stuff I've seen.

EDIT: I was also kind of happy staying logged out but then I saw this and tons of anxiety rose to the surface, I just feel like I couldn't leave it unsaid because as unfortunate and upsetting as it may be, one of the things I was taught was to always speak my mind even if it's not always the best option, I had not really spoken my mind in previous matters, I'd just give vague answers because I felt like it was "Something you do not do on the internet" or "You should not take the internet seriously".

Also, fyi yes I do know how to clean up a script and make it readable for others generally the script was messy but anyway, it requires tab, commenting and a few other things which I have no problem with, the problem was that the people in question were incessantly rude about it, showing respect is a 2-way street I am not going to clean up something just because you insist my script is "Fucking messy" or my personal favorite "Clean it up, or you don't know how to script noob", which yes because I was not willing to clean it up after hearing that could possibly be my fault that I wasn't helped in the long run, you may or may not understand why I am a little bitter towards a lot of people when it comes to the Zandronum community.

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Re: Public image

#60

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Fookerton wrote:Instead you have admins berating users for playing mods they don't approve of, and then subject them to inane IRC arguments which amount to nothing more than spam.
Examples of this please?

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