Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG
Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am
Here you all go. All vanilla speeds, spreads but improved RNG and damage.
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My stance this whole thread has been that of being against RNG, but restated that changing weapon RNG alone wouldn't provide significant change to anything, and that there would still be other RNG factors to take care of (in which case, I'd consider the effort -> payoff worth to be very unsatisfying). If one is going to get their hands dirty changing the game, they shouldn't half-ass it and instead go all-in with squashing all elements of randomness the game has to offer, because changing only a select few things will lead to anti-RNG types (myself included) questioning "ok, but why didn't you change this one RNG element though?"
The thing what you all seem to misunderstand is that removing weapon rng barely changes anything gameplay related. It only improves the competitivity of this game albeit slightly. As I've stated numerous times before weapon rng doesn't really add anything to the game. Whether you keep it in or remove it, you won't feel any change to the usual gameplay. Removing other rng factors like how spawns are generated will without a doubt make Doom even more competitive, it will also significantly change the gameplay. Which way more people (myself included) will be against.Zakken wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 amExactly. As I said, can of worms. If you wanna start working on removing RNG elements from the game, you can't discriminate between damage tables, bullet/pellet spreads, spawns, etc., if you really want to achieve that goal. Sticking to a middle ground of sorts will only leave both purists and anti-RNG players unhappy.Doomkid wrote: ↑Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:09 amBut aren't spawnkill chains a matter of luck as well? You can get lucky and get a bunch in a row or be unlucky and never get them, just depends on the luck of each round. How is it different from RNG in that sense? It's still luck having a big influence on the outcome of the game.
Obviously the game is still competitive with RNG, just less competitive than how it would be without rng. I'll host a server with the rng patch Rust gave and hopefully attract some people with it. So we can properly "test" if it works out or not. Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.Doomkid wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:08 amAnd we've all made our cases and points as well. I don't think RNG makes the game "non competitive" for the reasons I've already stated. It's a matter we all seem to disagree on, it's always been a divisive topic. I'm guessing this is why it hasn't been implemented in dmflag form as well - No one ever agrees what is and is not worth changing. I feel like the best course of action is to just use/make whatever mods suit your tastes and if you really want people to play using it, start a server with it, otherwise very few will want to host it themselves for (insert reasons X Y and Z here). I don't mean this in a negative way or anything but it's a topic that's been discussed quite a lot over the years and the results are always the same.
And what should it default to? The median of whatever the random supplies? Would this cvar only be valid with stock Doom 2 weapons or just every random damage value actors supply?
I don't really know how CVAR's work aside from the fact that they're toggleable. But yeah the median would be the best to set the damage too.
No-RNG will change the game significantly depending on the values you give to each pellet/projectile because now you have fixed damage. That means if we go by plasma balls maximum damage output of 40 per projectile then 3 shots will kill a player instantly in a very short stream. 4 shots with green armor and blue armor. You'll have to now "balance" the values assigned to each ball so they do not just crush a player on specific duel maps, and plasma projectiles are faster than Doommarine's speed at 875 Map Units Per Second (I don't know how many "clickclacks" that is). Rockets don't travel that fast ( 700 MUPS) which are slower than Doommarine with SR40. The firing rate of Plasma is greater than rockets. This isn't including hitscan weaponry at max values with sg doing 105 with all pallets hitting and ssg doing 300.Zakken wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 amMy stance this whole thread has been that of being against RNG, but restated that changing weapon RNG alone wouldn't provide significant change to anything, and that there would still be other RNG factors to take care of (in which case, I'd consider the effort -> payoff worth to be very unsatisfying). If one is going to get their hands dirty changing the game, they shouldn't half-ass it and instead go all-in with squashing all elements of randomness the game has to offer, because changing only a select few things will lead to anti-RNG types (myself included) questioning "ok, but why didn't you change this one RNG element though?"
That's hardly an opinion that only I have, and the majority of voters stand against RNG as well, so I guess that makes us all contrarians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
SV_SpawnFarthestLollipop wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:10 pmRegarding random spawns, what about this?:
When killed by someone, spawn at a spawn point that is some minimum distance away from the killer.
That way it is still random, which means that neither player really knows where the killed player respawns, but the player won't spawn right next to his killer.
Chill. SV_Spawnfarthest sounds exactly as you described earlier. You said "minimum distance" and the avoidance of spawn fragging. That's what spawnfarthest does.Lollipop wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:34 pmDid you even bother to actually read what I wrote? SV_SpawnFarthest is deterministic, and I suggest randomly choosing between spawn points at a minimum distance from the killer to mitigate the determinism. A middle ground meant to preserve the element of randomness without getting spawnkilled a dozen times in a row.