Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

Off-topic chat. Real talk.

Weapon RNG or No weapon RNG

Keeping the RNG for weapons
15
50%
Removing the RNG for weapons
15
50%
 
Total votes: 30

User avatar
Ivan
Addicted to Zandronum
Posts: 2134
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:38 pm
Location: Omnipresent

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#41

Post by Ivan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:22 pm

Mobius wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:17 pm
We can argue the uselessness of the shotgun in another thread

I'd say tighten the damage rng a bit and keep spawn rng there otherwise D5M7 becomes a useless map. You might as well reduce the frags to 10 if you put on spawn furthest.
Spawn furthest pretty much plays like NS where you grab respawning items. Promotes passive gameplay, but hey it keeps spawn fragging so people are bound to be happy :P
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===

User avatar
Zakken
Forum Regular
Posts: 660
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:32 am
Location: House Ylisse

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#42

Post by Zakken » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 am

Doomkid wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:09 am
But aren't spawnkill chains a matter of luck as well? You can get lucky and get a bunch in a row or be unlucky and never get them, just depends on the luck of each round. How is it different from RNG in that sense? It's still luck having a big influence on the outcome of the game.
Exactly. As I said, can of worms. If you wanna start working on removing RNG elements from the game, you can't discriminate between damage tables, bullet/pellet spreads, spawns, etc., if you really want to achieve that goal. Sticking to a middle ground of sorts will only leave both purists and anti-RNG players unhappy.
Mobius wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:58 pm
It reminds me of a huge argument I had with Combinebobnt about doom random over our game of d2m1 where I held the lead until I got spawned 7 times in a row in the same hallway spawn on repeat. I had to fight my way to settle for a 22-25 game in his favor. Why do I have to work harder than my opponent just almost tie-up a score with an opponent just because GOD said so? That's skill and I am not rewarded for my greater efforts than my opponent except not being humiliated on a map I mained for awhile. Had I been a lesser opponent he would have 25-18 me from that alone. The argument was over doom random.
It's almost like D2M1 is a bad and unbalanced map or something! But yeah, thanks RNJesus.
Ivan wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:32 pm
I think there's a reason why Doom never had the competitive appeal games like Quake had. RNG has to be one o the greatest reasons.
Absolutely not. If you wanna look into reasons why Quake became a staple in competitive gaming over Doom, then here are some factors to think about:

- Quake had a more sophisticated deathmatch multiplayer that's considerably more viable for the average user than Doom;
- Quake natively supported up to 16 players, which allowed for larger-scale multiplayer gatherings in general;
- Quake's weapons were actually balanced for deathmatch purposes, unlike Doom's own weapons;
- The Quake community created QuakeCon, which further enhanced Quake multiplayer's popularity. Doom never had much going for it, so its only choice was to become a side dish for that conference;
- The Quake franchise eventually received Quake III Arena, which has PvP gameplay as its sole focus, doubling down on gameplay styles and mechanics popularised by its previous titles. Q3 and Unreal Tournament became some of the most prestigious competitive shooters at the time because of their excellent game design specifically tailored for competition;
- Not many years later, Quake 4 came out, whose multiplayer is a carbon copy of Quake 3's, which proved successful in keeping competitive interest from veterans and newcomers alike. Meanwhile, Doom's next title was Doom 3, a single-player-centred shooter with cheap survival-horror elements;
- A few years after that, Quake Live came out (at the time, a free-to-play game), which provided a healthy income of new players for some time while providing some new features and balance changes to improve on the game's competitive integrity;
- Today we have Doom 2016 which, in spite of having a decent multiplayer, plays nothing like classic Doom. Quake Champions still plays very much like Quake in spite of cashing in on trendy class-based gameplay;
- In summation, id Software put tons of effort into keeping the Quake competitive scene alive by maintaining its brand and community while perfecting its franchise's craft with time, and the community gave back by working just as hard to make it a sustainable platform.

Amongst all of these reasons why, something like the fact Doom has RNG elements is hardly significant.
* Determination.

User avatar
Mobius
Posts a lot
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Location: The center of the A3's controversial and machiavellian conspiracy
Clan: Cube
Clan Tag: Aᵌ
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#43

Post by Mobius » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am

Zakken wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 am
I am contrarian every post
dewsome: i can do this all day
dewsome: do you think you're somehow special? i spent years arguing with nostar, jenova, mobius
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up
Alfonzo ~ "I wonder who will hear him trash talk when the dirt closes over him?"

User avatar
Ru5tK1ng
Posts a lot
Posts: 719
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:04 pm

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#44

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:12 am

Here you all go. All vanilla speeds, spreads but improved RNG and damage.

https://allfearthesentinel.net/zandronu ... =edoom.pk3

User avatar
Doomkid
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:04 am
Location: Aussie Land
Clan: UniDoom
Clan Tag: [UD]
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#45

Post by Doomkid » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:26 am

Sweet, this is going to go well with pro duel in my skins folder [/stolen joke]

User avatar
Zakken
Forum Regular
Posts: 660
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:32 am
Location: House Ylisse

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#46

Post by Zakken » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Mobius wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am
I reduce others' statements to memetic garbage to make myself look intelligent
My stance this whole thread has been that of being against RNG, but restated that changing weapon RNG alone wouldn't provide significant change to anything, and that there would still be other RNG factors to take care of (in which case, I'd consider the effort -> payoff worth to be very unsatisfying). If one is going to get their hands dirty changing the game, they shouldn't half-ass it and instead go all-in with squashing all elements of randomness the game has to offer, because changing only a select few things will lead to anti-RNG types (myself included) questioning "ok, but why didn't you change this one RNG element though?"

That's hardly an opinion that only I have, and the majority of voters stand against RNG as well, so I guess that makes us all contrarians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
* Determination.

User avatar
Galactus
Forum Regular
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:22 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#47

Post by Galactus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:29 am

Zakken wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 am
Doomkid wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:09 am
But aren't spawnkill chains a matter of luck as well? You can get lucky and get a bunch in a row or be unlucky and never get them, just depends on the luck of each round. How is it different from RNG in that sense? It's still luck having a big influence on the outcome of the game.
Exactly. As I said, can of worms. If you wanna start working on removing RNG elements from the game, you can't discriminate between damage tables, bullet/pellet spreads, spawns, etc., if you really want to achieve that goal. Sticking to a middle ground of sorts will only leave both purists and anti-RNG players unhappy.
The thing what you all seem to misunderstand is that removing weapon rng barely changes anything gameplay related. It only improves the competitivity of this game albeit slightly. As I've stated numerous times before weapon rng doesn't really add anything to the game. Whether you keep it in or remove it, you won't feel any change to the usual gameplay. Removing other rng factors like how spawns are generated will without a doubt make Doom even more competitive, it will also significantly change the gameplay. Which way more people (myself included) will be against.

Since I don't feel like repeating myself over and over, I'll explain for the last time what my point is with this thread. The reason why I'm pro-removing weapon RNG is because it doesn't add anything to the game. It's just a flaw in this game, that easily can be fixed without anyone even noticing it.

User avatar
Doomkid
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:04 am
Location: Aussie Land
Clan: UniDoom
Clan Tag: [UD]
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#48

Post by Doomkid » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:08 am

And we've all made our cases and points as well. I don't think RNG makes the game "non competitive" for the reasons I've already stated. It's a matter we all seem to disagree on, it's always been a divisive topic. I'm guessing this is why it hasn't been implemented in dmflag form as well - No one ever agrees what is and is not worth changing. I feel like the best course of action is to just use/make whatever mods suit your tastes and if you really want people to play using it, start a server with it, otherwise very few will want to host it themselves for (insert reasons X Y and Z here). I don't mean this in a negative way or anything but it's a topic that's been discussed quite a lot over the years and the results are always the same.

User avatar
Galactus
Forum Regular
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:22 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#49

Post by Galactus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am

Doomkid wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:08 am
And we've all made our cases and points as well. I don't think RNG makes the game "non competitive" for the reasons I've already stated. It's a matter we all seem to disagree on, it's always been a divisive topic. I'm guessing this is why it hasn't been implemented in dmflag form as well - No one ever agrees what is and is not worth changing. I feel like the best course of action is to just use/make whatever mods suit your tastes and if you really want people to play using it, start a server with it, otherwise very few will want to host it themselves for (insert reasons X Y and Z here). I don't mean this in a negative way or anything but it's a topic that's been discussed quite a lot over the years and the results are always the same.
Obviously the game is still competitive with RNG, just less competitive than how it would be without rng. I'll host a server with the rng patch Rust gave and hopefully attract some people with it. So we can properly "test" if it works out or not. Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.

User avatar
Fused
Forum Staff
Posts: 594
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:47 am
Location: Netherlands
Clan: TK
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#50

Post by Fused » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:26 pm

Galactus wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am
Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.
And what should it default to? The median of whatever the random supplies? Would this cvar only be valid with stock Doom 2 weapons or just every random damage value actors supply?

I'm totally in for this, but I feel like the result should be discussed.
ZCC, A Client Enhancement for Zandronum
Zombie Horde 2 (coming soon) || DoomZ : Overpoch (coming not so soon)

Image

User avatar
Galactus
Forum Regular
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:22 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#51

Post by Galactus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:10 pm

Fused wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:26 pm
Galactus wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am
Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.
And what should it default to? The median of whatever the random supplies? Would this cvar only be valid with stock Doom 2 weapons or just every random damage value actors supply?

I'm totally in for this, but I feel like the result should be discussed.
I don't really know how CVAR's work aside from the fact that they're toggleable. But yeah the median would be the best to set the damage too.

User avatar
Mobius
Posts a lot
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Location: The center of the A3's controversial and machiavellian conspiracy
Clan: Cube
Clan Tag: Aᵌ
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#52

Post by Mobius » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:21 pm

Zakken wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am
Mobius wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am
I reduce others' statements to memetic garbage to make myself look intelligent
My stance this whole thread has been that of being against RNG, but restated that changing weapon RNG alone wouldn't provide significant change to anything, and that there would still be other RNG factors to take care of (in which case, I'd consider the effort -> payoff worth to be very unsatisfying). If one is going to get their hands dirty changing the game, they shouldn't half-ass it and instead go all-in with squashing all elements of randomness the game has to offer, because changing only a select few things will lead to anti-RNG types (myself included) questioning "ok, but why didn't you change this one RNG element though?"

That's hardly an opinion that only I have, and the majority of voters stand against RNG as well, so I guess that makes us all contrarians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No-RNG will change the game significantly depending on the values you give to each pellet/projectile because now you have fixed damage. That means if we go by plasma balls maximum damage output of 40 per projectile then 3 shots will kill a player instantly in a very short stream. 4 shots with green armor and blue armor. You'll have to now "balance" the values assigned to each ball so they do not just crush a player on specific duel maps, and plasma projectiles are faster than Doommarine's speed at 875 Map Units Per Second (I don't know how many "clickclacks" that is). Rockets don't travel that fast ( 700 MUPS) which are slower than Doommarine with SR40. The firing rate of Plasma is greater than rockets. This isn't including hitscan weaponry at max values with sg doing 105 with all pallets hitting and ssg doing 300.

And if you want to fix all RNG that includes weapon patterns for hitscan too. You're going to get hyper-air tight death weapons that are glorified sniper rifles depending on the pattern you select. This is why I suggested to just tighten the ridiculous RNG ranges so it isn't like 4 to 40 or some such stupid shit like that. The game's spawning RNG is a small price to pay if it means the weapon RNG is fixed a bit. Now it means players get super punished for an error but don't need to worry about a weapon failing on them in the same shooting ranges of an opponent.

And in general: why not just add a check that diminishes the chance of repeated values from occurring in a succession. So a player doesn't get seeded to the same spawn location after a set number of times. This will probably fix the ungodly chance of ending up in the same location on repeat when fighting someone. The game shouldn't be completely redone where it isn't anything resembling the original play but subtle changes that can incorporate future updates at a later time with a better foundation for it.
dewsome: i can do this all day
dewsome: do you think you're somehow special? i spent years arguing with nostar, jenova, mobius
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up
Alfonzo ~ "I wonder who will hear him trash talk when the dirt closes over him?"

User avatar
Empyre
Zandrone
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:41 am
Location: Garland, TX, USA

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#53

Post by Empyre » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm

How about (for example) instead of rolling a 4-sided die and multiplying that by 10, we take 10 4-sided dice and add them up? The result will have the same range of possible values, but it will be very heavily weighted to the middle.

If you are going to have fixed damage, it should be the average (mean) value of the random damage, not the max or min.
"For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky."

Lollipop
Zandrone
Posts: 1083
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:34 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#54

Post by Lollipop » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:10 pm

Regarding random spawns, what about this?:
When killed by someone, spawn at a spawn point that is some minimum distance away from the killer.

That way it is still random, which means that neither player really knows where the killed player respawns, but the player won't spawn right next to his killer.

User avatar
Mobius
Posts a lot
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Location: The center of the A3's controversial and machiavellian conspiracy
Clan: Cube
Clan Tag: Aᵌ
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#55

Post by Mobius » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:01 pm

Lollipop wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:10 pm
Regarding random spawns, what about this?:
When killed by someone, spawn at a spawn point that is some minimum distance away from the killer.

That way it is still random, which means that neither player really knows where the killed player respawns, but the player won't spawn right next to his killer.
SV_SpawnFarthest
dewsome: i can do this all day
dewsome: do you think you're somehow special? i spent years arguing with nostar, jenova, mobius
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up
Alfonzo ~ "I wonder who will hear him trash talk when the dirt closes over him?"

Lollipop
Zandrone
Posts: 1083
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:34 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#56

Post by Lollipop » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:34 pm

Did you even bother to actually read what I wrote? SV_SpawnFarthest is deterministic, and I suggest randomly choosing between spawn points at a minimum distance from the killer to mitigate the determinism. A middle ground meant to preserve the element of randomness without getting spawnkilled a dozen times in a row.

User avatar
Mobius
Posts a lot
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Location: The center of the A3's controversial and machiavellian conspiracy
Clan: Cube
Clan Tag: Aᵌ
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#57

Post by Mobius » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:39 pm

Lollipop wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:34 pm
Did you even bother to actually read what I wrote? SV_SpawnFarthest is deterministic, and I suggest randomly choosing between spawn points at a minimum distance from the killer to mitigate the determinism. A middle ground meant to preserve the element of randomness without getting spawnkilled a dozen times in a row.
Chill. SV_Spawnfarthest sounds exactly as you described earlier. You said "minimum distance" and the avoidance of spawn fragging. That's what spawnfarthest does.
dewsome: i can do this all day
dewsome: do you think you're somehow special? i spent years arguing with nostar, jenova, mobius
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up
Alfonzo ~ "I wonder who will hear him trash talk when the dirt closes over him?"

User avatar
Combinebobnt
Contributor
Posts: 1833
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:37 am
Location: Erth
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#58

Post by Combinebobnt » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:35 am

spawnfarthest is maximum distance

User avatar
Galactus
Forum Regular
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:22 am
Location: Belgium
Contact:

Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#59

Post by Galactus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:39 pm

It's literally in the name, lol.

Post Reply