Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

Off-topic chat. Real talk.

Weapon RNG or No weapon RNG

Keeping the RNG for weapons
15
50%
Removing the RNG for weapons
15
50%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#21

Post by Mobius » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:00 pm

Anyone for RNG is purely not truly a competitive player in any sense of the imagination.

"But Mobius.. there's competitive games with random in it" let me clarify what I mean. Doom is TOO random.
  • Random spawns
  • Random damage for your attacks (Every weapon is random except BFG tracers)
  • Random pellet spread
  • Random pellet patterns (ssg specifically)
  • The battle between both players is random
There are too many factors in one game to truly determine if the results of a roll was manipulated by the players based on the decisions they make. You're left with scenarios where both players on equal footing having an arbitrary disparity between them. An outcome decided not even by distance or position. It's determined by chance you may not get screwed over. You're left with people who don't trust their "ssg" and even worst people getting frustrated when they do. Two players with the same weapon in a confined area doing random seeded damage and only one of them is rewarded only because the next number from the table favors them.

The poll should have a third option. I believe the spread for certain weapons should remain consistent provided the damage has better ranges. There's no reason for plasma balls to deal 4 to 50. I'd say tighten the RNG for these weapons instead of a complete removal of RNG. So there's still random but it isn't outrageous. Doom went long without it because IDSoftware was going to work on Quake so the idea of a competitive Doom scene requiring updates for weapon balances wasn't even a thing back then. There's no reason to believe in the old model now.

btw doom was suppose to be largely RPG-like hence the rolls.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#22

Post by Fused » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:54 pm

There's a big difference between luck and skill. This game needs less luck and more skill in competition.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#23

Post by Galactus » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:17 pm

Mobius wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:00 pm
~Post
Fortunately we can reliably and quite easily fix all those things except random spawns. I'm more than willing to test it out and see if it creates these "experience ruining" gameplay changes. So hopefully other people here are willing to give no weapon rng a shot.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#24

Post by Zakken » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:02 pm

ARGENTVM wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:07 pm
Ru5tK1ng wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:46 am
Gonna need a citation on that statement. Otherwise you're making shit up.
Movebob and Stillbob are client-based options though. So yeah, gonna say bullshit.
I remember either Ralphis or Dr. Sean mentioned something to that effect as an obstacle to take care of before they implemented the option to remove movebob in Odamex. That's why, in that port, even if you have movebob turned off, your weapon still moves off-center when you shoot, as not to interfere with this RNG. I have no idea if Zandronum's movebob 0 actually changes this behaviour, and if this whole thing is just bogus, then I apologise for the misinfo. I'll ask Ralph about it and see if he recollects more details on this.

EDIT: Yeah, turns out I was mistaken on this whole thing. Forget all I said about this. derp
Galactus wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:45 pm
That's sort of my point towards people who believe removing the rng would be a huge change in gameplay.
So your goal is just to prove a point to those who use RNG as an excuse for being bad? That's a petty and weak argument to have, and this is coming from someone who is inherently anti-RNG.

I largely agree with Mobius's latest post, but competitive Doom never had a history of providing inconsistent results. However, even though I'm of the belief that removing all RNG elements from the game would not bring significant changes to gameplay or results, I'm still in favour of the implementation of no-RNG mods in competitive servers. Since there's been a decent amount of support on this idea, how about we try to convince one server cluster or another to try it out for kicks? It'd be a waste if all of this discussing and theory-crafting never made it past the "what if" stage.
Last edited by Zakken on Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#25

Post by Galactus » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:10 pm

Zakken wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:02 pm
So your goal is just to prove a point to those who use RNG as an excuse for being bad? That's a petty and weak argument to have, and this is coming from someone who is inherently anti-RNG.
No, my goal is to implement this tiny change in gameplay mechanics to enhance the competitivity of this game. The "use rng as excuse for being bad" was a joke.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#26

Post by Mobius » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:15 am

Leave spawns alone. My suggestion is just to narrow the ranges a bit for RNG
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#27

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:12 am

Basically weapons shouldn't have RNG (this includes spread) and spawns should prefer farther spawns from the killer with the only rule being you can't respawn in the same spot twice.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#28

Post by Doomkid » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:04 am

Mobius wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:00 pm
Anyone for RNG is purely not truly a competitive player in any sense of the imagination.
...
btw doom was suppose to be largely RPG-like hence the rolls.
I get what you're saying here but I think "you can't be even remotely competitive with rng" is brazenly sweeping over the topic. You can be as competitive as you like while playing with RNG, you're just doing so with the die-rolling element present. That doesn't make it "not competitive", it just makes it a different strain of competition. One can easily argue that dealing with and overcoming the effects of the randomness is actually a big part of being good at Doom on the whole. This is how I feel personally, but I understand "what constitutes competitive Dooming" is subjective by it's very nature which is the whole reason this is a discussion.

With that said, if some sort of optional RNG restriction were to be implemented, I think doing it as you described is absolutely the best way to go about it. Again I'm certainly not against this idea, more options and ways to play is a good thing, far as I'm concerned.
Removing randomness allows players to learn and better strategize the gameplay (e.g. damage done to enemies); allowing you to actually become pro. With randomness, there's nothing to learn or utilize efficiently.
Ok now this is just getting ridiculous. An element of chance =/= an inability to strategize.

Just because you don't know with 100% full confidence specifically how much damage your SSG shot is going deal doesn't mean you can't ball park it and strategize from there. Sure there's an aspect of chance but you still know how the guns function in a general sense, any serious player is aware of their damage averages and their spread averages. Just because it isn't totally identical each time doesn't mean you can't use that general knowledge of the game to strategize/plan your attacks and movements accordingly. If Doom in it's unaltered state offered "nothing" to learn or utilize efficiently then please explain to me how thousands of competitive Doomers over the last 23 years have done exactly that?

Like I get what everyone here is saying but please cool it with framing your totally subjective opinion as "the cold facts of Doom" or whatever. It's a bogus way of presenting your ideas.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#29

Post by guydudeperson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:33 am

Get rid of rng on damage but keep rng on spread. Guns don't shoot perfectly straight but this be Doom so realism can piss off. Catawepz did the fixed spread thing and I guess it was ok but I kinda feel like it was too easy. Could be an issue with the specific spread patterns tho(sg had one pellet guaranteed down the middle and it's the strong pellet). Besides based on the talks I've had with people and reading this thread no rng on damage sounds as though it won't really effect much. Initially I was like "hurrdurr it helps me get lucky cuz I'm not that great" but I'm pretty sure I've eaten shit because my shot should have got whoever I'm playing but rngesus didn't bless me. And I don't need someone better than me also having rngesus on his side that shot.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#30

Post by Galactus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:31 am

Catastrophe wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:12 am
Basically weapons shouldn't have RNG (this includes spread) and spawns should prefer farther spawns from the killer with the only rule being you can't respawn in the same spot twice.
I'd say that's too big of a change, kind of takes spawnkilling, which kinda is a core mechanic of doom gameplay, out of the game. That's something I would call a too big of a gameplay change for it to be removed.
Every other rng like, weapon damage and weapon spread can be modified.(Though in my opinion the only weapon spread that might need to be made static is the one of the ssg).

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#31

Post by Doomkid » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:09 am

But aren't spawnkill chains a matter of luck as well? You can get lucky and get a bunch in a row or be unlucky and never get them, just depends on the luck of each round. How is it different from RNG in that sense? It's still luck having a big influence on the outcome of the game.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#32

Post by guydudeperson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:19 am

Spawnkilling is fun sometimes but more often than not it's bs. Another "luck" mechanic that's got no place in fair competitive. I bet if I was a bit quicker I'd disagree but spawning furthest will probably make pvp more inviting to noobs. We could always use more players and spawn furthest might be just enough time to be ready to not rq and never try again. I also dunno exactly what type of games were talking about. I'm assuming duel40 type stuff?

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#33

Post by arkore » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:42 pm

I also agree with Doomkid's post #28, and that I phrased my message quite poorly, and I apologize.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#34

Post by Decay » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:46 pm

All this no rng talk is bogus conjecture, because unless you know how much damage is being dealt (ie DAMNUMs), you still aren't going to know how much damage is actually being dealt because you won't be able to tell based on blood splatters alone, and shitty netcode/shitty connections are having far more impact than the "bawww low rng." I guarantee you there would be far less complaints if pellets actually did a good job of registering. Instead, people are only half-hitting the target and blaming rng for not giving them 15s across the board to kill the target.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#35

Post by guydudeperson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:34 pm

That may be true. I don't know shit about netcodes or the connections so I can't dispute it. What's so bad about it and why's it drop shots like that? Say that that is the real issue I'm still in favor of no rng just cuz why not? If the changes are neutral or bad you can just not load the wad.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#36

Post by Mobius » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:58 pm

Decay wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:46 pm
All this no rng talk is bogus conjecture, because unless you know how much damage is being dealt (ie DAMNUMs), you still aren't going to know how much damage is actually being dealt because you won't be able to tell based on blood splatters alone, and shitty netcode/shitty connections are having far more impact than the "bawww low rng." I guarantee you there would be far less complaints if pellets actually did a good job of registering. Instead, people are only half-hitting the target and blaming rng for not giving them 15s across the board to kill the target.
Same logic applies: We don't know if the netcode is enough to contribute to the random applied by Doom. This isn't a Zandro only phenomenon but rather an old concept people have spoken about in Doom since maybe csdoom or at least skulltag. Don't pretend random doesn't fuck you ever. It fucks everyone over and people are sick of it.
Doomkid wrote:I get what you're saying here but I think "you can't be even remotely competitive with rng" is brazenly sweeping over the topic. You can be as competitive as you like while playing with RNG, you're just doing so with the die-rolling element present. That doesn't make it "not competitive", it just makes it a different strain of competition. One can easily argue that dealing with and overcoming the effects of the randomness is actually a big part of being good at Doom on the whole. This is how I feel personally, but I understand "what constitutes competitive Dooming" is subjective by it's very nature which is the whole reason this is a discussion.

With that said, if some sort of optional RNG restriction were to be implemented, I think doing it as you described is absolutely the best way to go about it. Again I'm certainly not against this idea, more options and ways to play is a good thing, far as I'm concerned.
Too much random. People will have to dedicate themselves to the most optimal position possible to have a fair shot at someone and that's how pvp is played. You literally have to control everything and things left to chance is just based on all factors from net to game mechanics. One can argue you have to do this in every game, but in every other game the randomness isn't fierce especially in pitched situations where your first strike is less lethal than your opponent's just because dice-roll said 3s and not 5s. All you need to do is have a bad roll and suddenly you're down by 8. This has happened quite a bit in doom pvp especially duels.

It reminds me of a huge argument I had with Combinebobnt about doom random over our game of d2m1 where I held the lead until I got spawned 7 times in a row in the same hallway spawn on repeat. I had to fight my way to settle for a 22-25 game in his favor. Why do I have to work harder than my opponent just almost tie-up a score with an opponent just because GOD said so? That's skill and I am not rewarded for my greater efforts than my opponent except not being humiliated on a map I mained for awhile. Had I been a lesser opponent he would have 25-18 me from that alone. The argument was over doom random.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#37

Post by Ivan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:32 pm

If I could have absolutely no random, I'd take it. All competitive games today you see, include almost no RNG at all. Those that include RNG are there because of company promotion (Hearthstone) or some other means most likely.

Can you imagine Starcraft having RNG? That game's still considered a national sport in Korea and is highly regarded as a job. The only RNG in that is where you start off in the game and pretty much it.

I think there's a reason why Doom never had the competitive appeal games like Quake had. RNG has to be one o the greatest reasons. There's a reason people use SSG to take random "pot shots" hoping one of the pellets will hit. That sadly is a thing as RNG plays a big part in the game. This is what happens when RNG is a big part of your game. No matter how good of a player you are, your opponent still can be lucky and throw you off. And we all know once someone's thrown off and begins to lose momentum, it's hard to recover... Hell it's hard to recover from those in games without RNG, imagine the difficult it is with RNG... (Judas BFG spawn vs Judas SG spawn? King1 SSG spawn (any) vs King1 RL spawn? Getting said spawns N times in a row has a probability of 1/N^2 in theory, yet you see it happen 6-7 times sometimes... That's 1/49 or 2% chance of happening, approximately. Yet it happens. It happens quite often. I've lost count of games I won and lost due to that.)

Good luck, however, having the "old school" people try that. You'll be shut down at first sight. And to everyone who supports no rng, I think you all forget the quakecon final of Devastation vs Jkist where Devastation spawns right in front of JKist and JKist managed to tie the game just because of that, instead of losing...
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#38

Post by Mobius » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:19 pm

That and most weapons aren't viable.

S tier -
SSG
Chaingun (sleeper movement memeing)

A Tier -
Rocket Launcher
BFG

B Tier -
Plasma
Pistol (if opponent's health is low, otherwise shit tier)

C Tier -
Shotgun (if pellets hit)

Shit tier -
Everything else.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#39

Post by Galactus » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:44 pm

Mobius wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:19 pm
That and most weapons aren't viable.

S tier -
SSG
Chaingun (sleeper movement memeing)

A Tier -
Rocket Launcher
BFG

B Tier -
Plasma
Pistol (if opponent's health is low, otherwise shit tier)

C Tier -
Shotgun (if pellets hit)

Shit tier -
Everything else.
Kinda underestimating the shotgun here, I'd say it's way more viable than plasma and pistol.

Regardless I think we could convince old school people to remove the rng, because as I've somewhat made clear before it doesn't really add anything to the game. You can remove it and probably still have the same experience you always had in Doom. Forcing spawn farthest or whatever would be quite a big gameplay change though. It'd make spawnkilling obsolete, which as I said before is a mechanic old school people grew up with(and a fun one as well). I'm fully aware that making Doom completely competitive viable is near impossible, without applying too many gameplay changes. But something as small as removing weapon rng won't change too much.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#40

Post by Mobius » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:17 pm

We can argue the uselessness of the shotgun in another thread

I'd say tighten the damage rng a bit and keep spawn rng there otherwise D5M7 becomes a useless map. You might as well reduce the frags to 10 if you put on spawn furthest.
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