Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#41

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:09 pm

Leonard wrote:
Mobius wrote:I don't even need to address how suspiciously awkward it is that you say you aren't here for Decay but then don't post unless it pertains to him.
That's just in your head, Mobius.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#42

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:21 pm

It's pretty apparent Leonard was one of the individuals who were jumping for joy when Decay was banned. It's no secret both despise each other.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#43

Post by Dynamo » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:43 pm

I also love how in that 2016 post he repeated, verbatim, something I said to him a long time ago when he told me to go kill myself, which I doubt is a coincidence. If this doesn't show that this guy obsesses over people he dislikes more than anyone else, I don't know what would.

Anyway, I think Decay should definitely be unbanned. While some of you may not like him, you are not exactly supposed to take him out to dinner: he is meant to do his duty as a respectable community member (which he has said he intends to do) and he has been very valuable both as a mapper and as a guide writer, among other things. There are simply only pros on unbanning him and only cons in keeping him banned. That said, I suppose a little less obsession over personal matters, as our friend Leonard showed in that 2016 post, would ultimately be healthier for the entire community.

EDIT: upon checking just to make sure, it seems he did /not/ actually repeat my words verbatim, it was just a quote that's part of his post, but it does not show up as being so in Mobius' post. Apologies for the misunderstanding, but it doesn't otherwise invalidate what has been said.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#44

Post by Tiger » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:52 am

Just thought I'd point out that this very forum topic (along with the previous topic) has more growing activity in a short amount of time as opposed to other topics lately. Though, that is how it seems in my eyes.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#45

Post by Leonard » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:00 am

Dynamo wrote:I also love how in that 2016 post he repeated, verbatim, something I said to him a long time ago when he told me to go kill myself, which I doubt is a coincidence. If this doesn't show that this guy obsesses over people he dislikes more than anyone else, I don't know what would.
That's because it's a quote.
Ru5tK1ng wrote:It's pretty apparent Leonard was one of the individuals who were jumping for joy when Decay was banned. It's no secret both despise each other.
Yeah which is why in this very thread I literally said I would be ok with him getting unbanned. I must hate him so much, right?
Mobius wrote:[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Again, I'm not just talking about the forums. If you had bothered to read the two next lines you'd see I would explain that I read the forums but never have I said that I post.
Posting in here != being active.
Leonard wrote:There have been many mentions of him before today and I didn't post either.
I only posted because I was directly mentioned.
You can be paranoid all you want but the fact is I didn't leave zandronum, I have regular demos and IRC logs that date back from before today and have still been reading these forums.
Let's even assume you're right for a second and say I'm only there for Decay. Why then would I even agree in the slightest to his unban?

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#46

Post by Mobius » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:09 am

Leonard wrote:There have been many mentions of him before today and I didn't post either.
I only posted because I was directly mentioned.
You can be paranoid all you want but the fact is I didn't leave zandronum, I have regular demos and IRC logs that date back from before today and have still been reading these forums.
Let's even assume you're right for a second and say I'm only there for Decay. Why then would I even agree in the slightest to his unban?
[/quote]

I am pretty sure my screenshot demonstrates that you only post and become active for Decay and Decay related issues. 2016 to 2017 without fail. I'm sorry to say that even though I can agree with you and many others in the hesitation of Decay it seems you may exhibit an unhealthy habit of only being active for him. This doesn't necessarily disqualify you but rather.. makes anyone suspicious.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#47

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:14 am

Leonard wrote:Yeah which is why in this very thread I literally said I would be ok with him getting unbanned. I must hate him so much, right?
Considering you were 'praying for' his departure, I'm fairly certain you still despise him somewhat. I care not how much you hate him or don't. My point was there is no secret about the animosity between the two of you.
Last edited by Ru5tK1ng on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#48

Post by nax » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:14 am

AlexMax wrote:
nax wrote:You're nitpicking a bit here as I was making a general point about what AlexMax was saying. Behavior off our forums may not matter when someone is to be banned, but it definitely matters when someone is to be unbanned as that is the only metric of if someone wants to rejoin the community or not.
I don't think you actually understood my point.

What I was saying is that his recent behavior elsewhere might be a useful yardstick for how long or short of a leash you should put him on once unbanned. If something blows up here, it can help you tell the difference between a momentary indiscretion, or just another day in familiar old Decay land.

However, it's also important to recognize that different communities and social groups have different standards of behavior, and just because somebody acts a certain way elsewhere doesn't mean that he'll necessarily continue to do it here. He did it here, but he was also punished for it, and given another chance (especially considering it's been a year and change), he might decide to be on his best behavior.
I understand your point which is exactly what I'm talking about. Of course if he's banned from the forums I cannot use his current forum behavior as a metric. But I can get a better picture elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'd keep him banned because he said something mean to someone on a private chat room, but its the only metric of behavior we have to piece together.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#49

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:19 am

^At that point, you might as well collect criminal files on everyone.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#50

Post by Mobius » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:21 am

Ru5tK1ng wrote:^At that point, you might as well collect criminal files on everyone.
That's legitimately what this post is about. I suppose Zandronum needs a STASI intelligence agency in which activity is monitored to best described what the current player's dossier will look like.. you know, for better moderation.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#51

Post by nax » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:40 am

Please show me where I said that I want logs of all behavior. All I've said is that all I have to go on about Decay's behavior now is how he's behaved on our IRC network lately. I'm also willing to hear out why he'd be better now than he was at the time of his ban.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#52

Post by Mobius » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:43 am

nax wrote:Please show me where I said that I want logs of all behavior. All I've said is that all I have to go on about Decay's behavior now is how he's behaved on our IRC network lately. I'm also willing to hear out why he'd be better now than he was at the time of his ban.
Are you basing this information on a log with him talking in the Zanstaff channel or what Zakken said which is off your irc network?
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#53

Post by nax » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:46 am

Mobius wrote:
nax wrote:Please show me where I said that I want logs of all behavior. All I've said is that all I have to go on about Decay's behavior now is how he's behaved on our IRC network lately. I'm also willing to hear out why he'd be better now than he was at the time of his ban.
Are you basing this information on a log with him talking in the Zanstaff channel or what Zakken said which is off your irc network?
I'm absolutely basing nothing of my own personal judgement over anyone off the anecdote of someone else. Only on what I've seen personally (#zastaff and #zandronum for instance). And of course refreshing my memory of Decay's post history previous to making my decision

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#54

Post by Mobius » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:52 am

nax wrote:
Mobius wrote:
nax wrote:Please show me where I said that I want logs of all behavior. All I've said is that all I have to go on about Decay's behavior now is how he's behaved on our IRC network lately. I'm also willing to hear out why he'd be better now than he was at the time of his ban.
Are you basing this information on a log with him talking in the Zanstaff channel or what Zakken said which is off your irc network?
I'm absolutely basing nothing of my own personal judgement over anyone off the anecdote of someone else. Only on what I've seen personally (#zastaff and #zandronum for instance). And of course refreshing my memory of Decay's post history previous to making my decision
That is fine but what about the off-site off Zandronum activity in which created the context of I and Alexmax's post?
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#55

Post by nax » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:08 am

I was not specifically referring to off-site content, I was using that discussion as a tangent about how we know Decay is willing to come back and that the behavior that got him banned in the first place will no longer be an issue. I was referring to the fact that Decay is no longer participating on the forums now because he's banned. Since Decay did not appeal attempting to defend himself and show why he'd no longer be breaking the rules, all I have to go on is what I've seen surrounding this community as a whole.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#56

Post by Mobius » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:12 am

nax wrote:I was not specifically referring to off-site content, I was using that discussion as a tangent about how we know Decay is willing to come back and that the behavior that got him banned in the first place will no longer be an issue. I was referring to the fact that Decay is no longer participating on the forums now because he's banned. Since Decay did not appeal attempting to defend himself and show why he'd no longer be breaking the rules, all I have to go on is what I've seen surrounding this community as a whole.
But part of the conclusion you draw is from off site activity hence the post from before. I mean I wasn't exactly going to staff myself when he propose the same thread I did so how would the staff know if I should be unbanned? Again you won't know until you actually do it and see, and if he fails you can just ban him again. Surrounding this community as a whole should only include Zandronum not any other location as discussed earlier.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#57

Post by Zakken » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:50 am

I apologise for not going into too much detail about Decay's interaction with me firsthand. I didn't expect it to become a central topic of discussion, so allow me to elaborate on that story.

I (jokingly) pledged to free Sgt. Mark IV in that Fun & Games thread, and I was mistaken about him still being banned today, so Decay corrected me like so. This happened at OFTC's #doomtwid, which is Doomworld's IRC mainstay:

Code: Select all

[16:29:29] <Decay_> Zakken i understand you are brazilian
[16:29:32] <Decay_> and thus retarded
[16:29:38] <Decay_> but sgt mark iv is already unbanned
[16:29:45] <Decay_> and has been for 2 and half years
[16:30:34] <Zakken> Idk why you're getting so angry over a Fun & Games post :(
[16:31:01] <Decay_> i'm not angry
[16:31:04] <Decay_> just stating facts
[16:31:09] <Zakken> uh huh
Take from it what you will. I'm not saying I'm against his unbanning only because he was grossly insulting to me a number of times aside from this. I stated that, from my perspective, I had serious doubts that he would've changed his behaviour that prompted his ban to begin with. This mentality that "even if he hasn't changed at all, we should give him another chance and see what happens" is a dangerous one, because doing that would show that we've learned nothing from past repeat offenders who never learned their lesson in spite of all of the evidence that those people never had any intentions to better themselves.
Mobius wrote:I'm just going to notice the obvious first that this is the first post you've made since last year during the Best Ever incident which PROVES my point completely. Most of your post was also directed at Decay. I don't even need to address how suspiciously awkward it is that you say you aren't here for Decay but then don't post unless it pertains to him.
He posted because you dropped his name early on in the thread, as anybody who feels compelled to defend themselves after being called out would've done. The subject of discussion pertains to Decay, but his reasoning for posting is mainly because you brought him up.
Mobius wrote:I dispute that. I don't think Decay has acquired 27 warnings nor the most banned person in Zandronum. I'll wager he has been banned at least 1 time less than I have and I was only banned under 5 times. It just seems like my bans are numerous because of how long they were (2 years each). Do you mind if you post factual numbers on the amount of bans/warnings he has gotten?
Even if TTA is statistically inaccurate with his statement, the fact stands that he wasn't an exemplary user and accrued many warnings, suspensions, etc.
WhiteAce wrote:I've said this before and I'll say it again, most forums thrive from drama, it's how some of them are still kept alive today you can't always have order because there has to be a balance between order and chaos
No offence, but this "order and chaos go hand-in-hand" rhetoric is simply a delusional D&D-esque ideal that has no bearing on how reality works. In the end, you're merely advocating for more drama with a pseudo-axiom.

There are also three different counter-arguments I'd like to debunk.
Dynamo wrote:That said, I suppose a little less obsession over personal matters, as our friend Leonard showed in that 2016 post, would ultimately be healthier for the entire community.
"Some people (like Leonard) only want Decay to stay banned because they have personal vendettas against him"

This is false. Again, Leonard only came around to post here because he was mentioned earlier in the thread, which really doesn't show this "Decay obsession" narrative that's being thrown around. Decay's ban was conducted by the staff, so obviously there are more people who wanted (or at least benefited) from his banning. It appears to me that Leonard and Jwarrier in particular are being blamed for Decay's ban because they've been absent for a long while and, therefore, are easy targets to pin such a nonsensical blame on. Decay only has himself to blame for getting banned, so I'd appreciate it if you left Leonard & co. out of this.
Mobius wrote:It doesn't pertain to you and if you had read what I said to Alexmax is doesn't even matter because it is Zakken. I don't want to derail this topic for what that implies but honestly you should probably reexamine your position [...]
"Whatever Decay did to Zakken doesn't matter because Zakken was involved"

Honestly, this is not even an argument, but a thinly veiled personal attack while you're pretending to be the better man by refraining from explaining why my word doesn't matter. So, why does my word not matter? If you can't explain that, then you don't have an argument.

I'm nice to anybody who didn't treat me like trash numerous times in the past, and even still, Decay's attacks on me are unwarranted, considering I was merely mistaken about a minor fact in a joke thread. I'm not out here trying to make enemies, nor am I trying to instigate anything. Simply stating my experiences with a problematic banned user in a Doom-themed place when the OP question asks if he should be unbanned shouldn't be considered instigative.
Mobius wrote:
Ru5tK1ng wrote:^At that point, you might as well collect criminal files on everyone.
That's legitimately what this post is about. I suppose Zandronum needs a STASI intelligence agency in which activity is monitored to best described what the current player's dossier will look like.. you know, for better moderation.
"What Decay does outside of Zandronum shouldn't matter in Zandronum"

I agree with the core idea of this, but this hyperbole seems like a desperate attempt to shut this argument down. There are two reasons why said hyperbole isn't valid:

1. This happened at the Doomworld IRC. While it may not be Zandronum, it's still a neighbouring community who does have a relatively above-average overlap in members with Zandronum. We've consulted staff from the ZDoom forums about troublemakers in the past, so there is no reason why we shouldn't have this level of communication with the people at Doomworld as well.

2. We never stopped to ask why Decay approached me like that at Doomworld IRC in the first place. That channel sees very little activity, yet Decay chose that place in particular to harass me about things unrelated to Doomworld. He's not banned from Zandronum IRC, and he could very well have joined any of the channels I don't have operator powers in to do that, or he could've PM'd me about it at whatever IRC we're both in, so why didn't he? My only guess is that he's trying to get away with saying dislikeable stuff to me in public while keeping his actions relatively hidden from Zandronum staff, which would be really shady and dishonest to our staff, and would be counter-intuitive to any pledges to free him if true.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#58

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:34 am

It's always interesting when people say Zandro should keep tabs on members and what they do in other places. Doomworld doesn't really care and will ban you when you break the rules there (they even gave capo a fair chance despite his obvious baggage). ZD never gave a shit and got rid of you when they saw fit.
We never stopped to ask why Decay approached me like that at Doomworld IRC in the first place
No one cares that's probably why.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#59

Post by Zakken » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:42 am

Ru5tK1ng wrote:No one cares that's probably why.
That event was talked about a lot through this thread, so I'd say every bit of detail matters.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#60

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:53 am

The detail of why is irrelevant.

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