Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#21

Post by Fused » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:02 pm

Galactus wrote:Should unban SGT Mark IV as well, dude arguably contribueted the most to online Doom compared to everyone else.
He already is. The only reason you didn't notice is because he hates forums and he doesn't give a shit he's unbanned, so he won't post.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#22

Post by Leonard » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:51 pm

Mobius wrote:were only around FOR Decay [...] have been gone as long as he has been banned
You're wrong. I'm not "gone".
Just because I don't post on the forums doesn't mean I left Zandronum forever.
I'm still reading these forums, still browsing the tracker, still on IRC and still playing regularly.
If I were there FOR Decay as you say then I wouldn't even bother with reading here anymore.
I admit I did stop for a few months IIRC after I got banned.
Mobius wrote:but yet spoke about how they and others might come around if he was gone. We both know the latter has and will not occur.
I definitely said something along those lines for other people and you're right, not much has happened.
As for myself I'm not sure but I don't believe I ever threatened to leave forever just because of Decay.
Like someone already said, the community simply moved on HOWEVER I'm noticing these kinds of threads gone which is NICE.
nax wrote:This means that there needs to be some justification for overturning the permanent ban in the first place. One of those reasons would be that said person is now willing to reintegrate into the community. As AlexMax has said (and witnessed by myself and others) Decay's behavior has not given me any reason for why I would agree to him being unbanned.

Also, are you sure that Decay even wants to be unbanned? It'd seem to me that if he did, his behavior would have changed somewhat and he would have appealed for it. I suppose what I'm looking for in this discussion is evidence that Decay wants to reintegrate into this community.
I 100% agree with this.
I don't like permanent bans either and I would have no problem with Decay getting unbanned if he actually changed his behavior.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#23

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:04 pm

I'm not the most willing to do it.

Why? He's practically the most warned, suspended and temp. banned person in Zandronum, and he has a hell of a moderation history extending well ways back to Skulltag (I know he was in Purgatory at least once). Unless there's some unanimous vote for yes amongst the rest of the staff, I'm voting no on this.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#24

Post by Sean » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:45 pm

The Toxic Avenger wrote:He's practically the most warned, suspended and temp. banned person in Zandronum, and he has a hell of a moderation history extending well ways back to Skulltag (I know he was in Purgatory at least once).
I must say, that sounds like a lot of second chances...

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned form the forums?

#25

Post by ibm5155 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:08 pm

Yeah, we need our core drama contributor back...
the ban is kinda useless to teach when you have a similar forum in the near corner and you are free to post there.
By the look at doomworld posts, he's still the same, a cool guy when he wants to be and a dick to specific members

EDIT: and actually a ban will make him happier
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#26

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:19 pm

nax wrote:While you are right to imply that IRC rules are "separate" from Forum rules, where you are not so right is how relevant it is. While staff would not ban Decay on the forums for a remark he made on IRC, Decay is already banned permanently.
I'm going to reply with just this
Zakken wrote:his uncivilised vents towards me outside of Zandronum IRC
Nax wrote:This means that there needs to be some justification for overturning the permanent ban in the first place. One of those reasons would be that said person is now willing to reintegrate into the community. As AlexMax has said (and witnessed by myself and others) Decay's behavior has not given me any reason for why I would agree to him being unbanned.
I don't disagree as stated in my original post, but I ended it with "What's one more year?" to convey how easy it is just to remove him again. He isn't Capo, Shadowfox, Simk, Kal Foxis, or any of those dredges to warrant something that permanent. I am interested in the severity in which his ban remains permanent not that there isn't justification for the ban itself (I was one of the people who agreed for his ban to begin with).


--------------------

Now for the interesting post
Leonard wrote:You're wrong. I'm not "gone".
Just because I don't post on the forums doesn't mean I left Zandronum forever.
I'm still reading these forums, still browsing the tracker, still on IRC and still playing regularly.
If I were there FOR Decay as you say then I wouldn't even bother with reading here anymore.
I admit I did stop for a few months IIRC after I got banned.
I'm just going to notice the obvious first that this is the first post you've made since last year during the Best Ever incident which PROVES my point completely. Most of your post was also directed at Decay. I don't even need to address how suspiciously awkward it is that you say you aren't here for Decay but then don't post unless it pertains to him.
TheToxicAvenger wrote:Why? He's practically the most warned, suspended and temp. banned person in Zandronum, and he has a hell of a moderation history extending well ways back to Skulltag (I know he was in Purgatory at least once). Unless there's some unanimous vote for yes amongst the rest of the staff, I'm voting no on this.
I dispute that. I don't think Decay has acquired 27 warnings nor the most banned person in Zandronum. I'll wager he has been banned at least 1 time less than I have and I was only banned under 5 times. It just seems like my bans are numerous because of how long they were (2 years each). Do you mind if you post factual numbers on the amount of bans/warnings he has gotten?
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#27

Post by M_Ragequit » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:23 pm

Yo I didn't even read the topic but yeah unban Decay he /ourguy/ :wonk:
I really love how welcoming and friendly the Zandronum community i-SIKE!

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#28

Post by nax » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:44 pm

Mobius wrote: I'm going to reply with just this
You're nitpicking a bit here as I was making a general point about what AlexMax was saying. Behavior off our forums may not matter when someone is to be banned, but it definitely matters when someone is to be unbanned as that is the only metric of if someone wants to rejoin the community or not. While Zakken's own anecdote is a weak one given it's further removed from the forums than IRC is (and the fact that he doesn't provide evidence for it), other evidence of Decay's behavior not being up to community standards exists throughout the doom community at large. This is a valid concern and one that I'm primarily looking for an answer for. Basically, the question goes like this: "How much evidence is there of Decay wanting to reintegrate with the community - VS. - how much evidence is there of Decay acting in ways that run contrary to our community guidelines?" So far, this answer has been one sided and I'm looking for examples that tip these scales further in Decay's favor.
Mobius wrote:I don't disagree as stated in my original post, but I ended it with "What's one more year?" to convey how easy it is just to remove him again. He isn't Capo, Shadowfox, Simk, Kal Foxis, or any of those dredges to warrant something that permanent. I am interested in the severity in which his ban remains permanent not that there isn't justification for the ban itself (I was one of the people who agreed for his ban to begin with).
You do not need to be Kal Foxis or Capo to warrant a permanent ban. The central tenet of a permanent ban is that it becomes the final resort in dealing with a community member. Decay was fully aware that his behavior continually lands him in hot water. Even if we pretend #Metalwarnings never happened, there are more than enough consecutive incidences for a ban to be justified considering Decay at the time never felt interested in stopping after staff had repeatedly told him to stop that behavior. There's no reason why a permanent ban can't be an "indefinite ban", but there also has to be a reason for the change in heart. An indefinite ban is essentially keeping someone banned until they have learned from their mistakes and seek to reintegrate with the community. Has Decay learned from his mistakes, does he want to reintegrate into the community? These are what myself and others are seeking answers for.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#29

Post by Razgriz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:00 pm

Mobius wrote:Do you mind if you post factual numbers on the amount of bans/warnings he has gotten?
I don't think there is any way to really tell now, I believe that when the forum software got changed a lot of the warnings didn't carry over. There's many that are missing up to the early years of Zandronum.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#30

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:04 pm

nax wrote: You're nitpicking a bit here as I was making a general point about what AlexMax was saying
I'm nitpicking because you failed to read what Zakken wrote? Seriously? Dude it's shit outside of Zandronum irc. It doesn't pertain to you and if you had read what I said to Alexmax is doesn't even matter because it is Zakken. I don't want to derail this topic for what that implies but honestly you should probably reexamine your position otherwise you'd end up like IBM's post who is using Doomworld as a template for Zandronum behavior.

Unless you want to incorporate someone's behavior outside of your jurisdiction inside of the rules. I don't think you want to play that game.
Nax wrote:Behavior off our forums may not matter when someone is to be banned, but it definitely matters when someone is to be unbanned as that is the only metric of if someone wants to rejoin the community or not.
That is not a metric to base Zandronum's power off of because his behavior elsewhere has nothing to do with your responsibility. That also implies your behavior out of Zandronum holds meaning in Zandronum in which case why aren't you enforcing anything on people who misbehave elsewhere? Again.. I think you should reexamine what you are saying.
Nax wrote:While Zakken's own anecdote is a weak one given it's further removed from the forums than IRC is (and the fact that he doesn't provide evidence for it), other evidence of Decay's behavior not being up to community standards exists throughout the doom community at large.
Literally irrelevant.
Nax wrote:This is a valid concern and one that I'm primarily looking for an answer for. Basically, the question goes like this: "How much evidence is there of Decay wanting to reintegrate with the community - VS. - how much evidence is there of Decay acting in ways that run contrary to our community guidelines?" So far, this answer has been one sided and I'm looking for examples that tip these scales further in Decay's favor.
Are you prepared to evaluate everyone outside of this forum then because I have a track record of causing trouble outside of your community. Why don't we just do that to everyone then? I know you are a rookie moderator but please try to focus on things pertaining to your own medium. What Decay does elsewhere does NOT concern you and those beyond Zandronum are MORE than capable of policing their own regions.
Nax wrote:You do not need to be Kal Foxis or Capo to warrant a permanent ban. The central tenet of a permanent ban is that it becomes the final resort in dealing with a community member. Decay was fully aware that his behavior continually lands him in hot water. Even if we pretend #Metalwarnings never happened, there are more than enough consecutive incidences for a ban to be justified considering Decay at the time never felt interested in stopping after staff had repeatedly told him to stop that behavior. There's no reason why a permanent ban can't be an "indefinite ban", but there also has to be a reason for the change in heart. An indefinite ban is essentially keeping someone banned until they have learned from their mistakes and seek to reintegrate with the community. Has Decay learned from his mistakes, does he want to reintegrate into the community? These are what myself and others are seeking answers for.
Honestly you won't know unless you unban him and see. The same is said of me and my first thread in this forum was this. I have many examples of my reform and I believe you won't know until you see it in action, but your own tenet incorporates irrelevant community activity which is a barrier of entry.

What's another year right?


------------- Edit
Razgriz wrote:I don't think there is any way to really tell now, I believe that when the forum software got changed a lot of the warnings didn't carry over. There's many that are missing up to the early years of Zandronum.
T
You can acquire that from 2013 and up or is that gone too?
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#31

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:26 pm

Wasn't that meme about policing a person's online history shut down long ago? Oh well, that's why it's best to use different identities for different things.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#32

Post by WhiteAce » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:30 pm

I've said this before and I'll say it again, most forums thrive from drama, it's how some of them are still kept alive today you can't always have order because there has to be a balance between order and chaos, having too much order is boring and can actually be depressing, especially when something seems corporate ie too many rules and regulations, so you've managed to clean up a few posts? What then you'll go ahead and live your daily life, just keeping things in order is an accomplishment? Having too much chaos can result in endless flame wars and users who do not know when to stop and can also lead to some very bad retaliation towards one another.

I don't know if anyone will get what I mean by this, Decay is not the nicest of people and I would call him a dick flat out, but that chaos can help this forum.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#33

Post by Razgriz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:48 pm

Mobius wrote:You can acquire that from 2013 and up or is that gone too?
All I can see is anything from 2016 and up, even the moderator log seems to do the same. My warning from 2014 or so is even gone too, so I can assume that it was lost when the forum software changed.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#34

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:09 pm

Razgriz wrote:
Mobius wrote:You can acquire that from 2013 and up or is that gone too?
All I can see is anything from 2016 and up, even the moderator log seems to do the same. My warning from 2014 or so is even gone too, so I can assume that it was lost when the forum software changed.
That's unfortunate since it'd build a case for or against Decay. I am hesitant to rely on TTA's assessment without factual numbers not that his argument is invalid considering we've seen decay run amok before.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#35

Post by Konda » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:12 pm

The main issue here seems to be whether he's willing to change his behavior to "reintegrate into the community". If that's the problem, why not just ask him? If he lies about it just to have a chance to be unbanned, he'll eventually express whichever behavior got him banned (assuming he gets unbanned) so you can perma ban him for real this time or something.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#36

Post by ibm5155 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:25 pm

just wondering, does Decay want or even care if he gets unbanned from zandronum?
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#37

Post by Konda » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:35 pm

ibm5155 wrote:just wondering, does Decay want or even care if he gets unbanned from zandronum?
There was a quote of him in the other thread saying he doesnt want or care to be unbanned, something like that, but that lacks context as in if he was joking, if he didn't believe he could be unbanned, or if he was serious. Asking him what I mentioned in my previous post should pretty much answer the question in the title of this thread and possibly end this discussion too.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#38

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:36 pm

He would probably prefer to be unbanned because in his mind he thinks the ban itself was 'bullshit'. As for the context of him saying he'd rather be banned, he was referring to the idea of being under permanent moderator review.

Honestly, the reason he got banned was because he was hostile to a lot of people and insulted one too many. But, the way things are now, there's little harm in unbanning him because there's no one left to even be hostile towards in this ghost town.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#39

Post by AlexMax » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:04 pm

nax wrote:You're nitpicking a bit here as I was making a general point about what AlexMax was saying. Behavior off our forums may not matter when someone is to be banned, but it definitely matters when someone is to be unbanned as that is the only metric of if someone wants to rejoin the community or not.
I don't think you actually understood my point.

What I was saying is that his recent behavior elsewhere might be a useful yardstick for how long or short of a leash you should put him on once unbanned. If something blows up here, it can help you tell the difference between a momentary indiscretion, or just another day in familiar old Decay land.

However, it's also important to recognize that different communities and social groups have different standards of behavior, and just because somebody acts a certain way elsewhere doesn't mean that he'll necessarily continue to do it here. He did it here, but he was also punished for it, and given another chance (especially considering it's been a year and change), he might decide to be on his best behavior.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#40

Post by Leonard » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:07 pm

Mobius wrote:I don't even need to address how suspiciously awkward it is that you say you aren't here for Decay but then don't post unless it pertains to him.
That's just in your head, Mobius.
There have been many mentions of him before today and I didn't post either.
I only posted because I was directly mentioned.
You can be paranoid all you want but the fact is I didn't leave zandronum, I have regular demos and IRC logs that date back from before today and have still been reading these forums.
Let's even assume you're right for a second and say I'm only there for Decay. Why then would I even agree in the slightest to his unban?

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