Is the Zandro Community dying?

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#41

Post by Mobius » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:39 am

Doomkid wrote: I agree with a lot of your post, but I'm not so sure about this bit. In the ancient year of 2001 there were already games significantly "better" than old Doom commonly played online - Quake 3, Counter Strike - the equivalent back then of the modern stuff currently being played, yet myself and a bunch of other pre teens/teenagers were still choosing Doom over the then-new stuff.
You aren't getting it. This isn't about you. This is about the demographic changes and it shows. The kids of then, including you, moved to Doom because options were limited and Doom was as fresh as their age. Doom came out in 93 and I'll say not a lot of the major activity then and 2010 was around my age group with very few exceptions. That age group even in the IDL span from 24 to 28 with very few players roughly hitting 30 and they are gone. You say a lot of players choose Doom over the new stuff then, but those games you mentioned were and still is extremely popular beyond any activity peak Doom had on a good day. Counterstrike is still played for money which is something Doom never truly got except whenever Jkist had to sell his phone to pay chewy in ZDDL or when Bones had to put out a mortgage to pay Jenova's team.. on STEAM!
Doomkid wrote:I think there will still be enough new youths getting interested in the game (especially with how 'retro gaming' is such a craze in recent years, combined with doom actually becoming relevant again with a new title) to pass the torch on to, so to speak.
I hesitantly disagree. They will only go to the newest title of Doom and then roughly play old doom until they are bored of it, and of course they'll only play single player. That IS the entire dilemma currently: single player is thriving and multiplayer is dying. They won't invest in playing old doom and I'll tell you why: It isn't accessible to install. That's it. You need a legal copy of Doom2 and all/or assicoated iwads, get zandronum/zdoom/zdaemondoom/zoomdoom/boomdoom/doomroom/loomgloom or whatever doom ports are calling themselves these days, and then get all pwads as requested by the server. Most new people DON'T HAVE TIME FOR ALL THAT and this was told to me by some quasi homosexual anime weeb who "trolls" youtube comments all day, looks at hentai, and plays nazi shooters in the form of modern FPSes. That's the NEW gaming demographic. Easy one-two-three install/play.

Doom has and will ALWAYS BE a novelty game people use to make conversation. Have you ever asked anyone outside of other doom players about doom? The conversation might go "OH Doom?! Oh yeah I love doom I played it." talk about how they have it, and may even say they play it. Now if you asked them what port they'll look at you confused and of course they're thinking of new doom. I've had this conversation before or overhear it when speaking to people outside of Doom's increasingly niche community. Can you even imagine them getting into this retro game they don't take seriously to play online? Why? The whole point of getting it on Steam of 10 dollars was to tell others you like Doom too (Doom2, get it?!).

Most of the players who got into games even then was into Half Life and shit even Gunz had its huge popularity of all five minutes beyond anything doom achieved in the very early 2000s. Doom is a more popular version of Blood.
Doomkid wrote:I just don't want them to be turned away because they think the Zand community in particular is basically unapproachable.
They wouldn't know about our reputation if they are new UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE is feeding that information. You have anyone to blame then blame it on the old SJW retards in Doomworld or the stuck-up airheads in Zdoom. Honestly it's funny because the guy who did Quakecon for Doom regretted it after experiencing the hilarity of Doomworld's community. Can you conceive what a new person will even begin to imagine with their political anti-white propaganda? That's not Zandronum. That's Doomworld. That's our shared reputation as long as that cancer of a forum continues to exist unchallenged.
Doomkid wrote:It's not nearly as bad as people act imo (funny as hell and entertaining actually, generally speaking) but I've heard various people saying they avoid this place because it seems too hostile or pretentious or some other shit along those lines, people who I'm guessing would otherwise play online at least occasionally.
This is an excuse to not come over because the single player side is literally a safe-space, and again anyone who is actually new wouldn't KNOW about Zandronum unless they are getting second-hand information. That means whoever is turning off people to the multiplayer side is doing the disservice and not us, and that is usually single-player kiddies ruining it for everyone. Blame them.

Anyone who says we are unapproachable who isn't from this community is who you turn your guns on, because they are making us look like something we aren't. When was the last time we had a huge drama fest that changed the port? 2015? The time before that? 2013 or 2014? Then within those years and now no drama.. huh. Our forums are quiet and dead compared to the lethany of rhetorical garbage coming out of Doomworld on a regular basis? Spare me, but I know this isn't you Doomkid. So don't take this as hostilities.
Doomkid wrote:I don't even really agree with that but the reputation is definitely there and I wish it wasn't. Maybe it was the exact same story when I was a kid and I just didn't realize it, I kind of hope that's the case since it means some sort of pulse is likely to remain in the coming years but the MP Doom community in general just seemed more open and welcoming back then. That's just my take on it though. As far as needing to "grow out" of Doom - there were a lot of people in their 20s/30s in the community when I first joined who aren't around anymore, I was part of the batch pretty much taking their place. I want us to foster a vibe in this place that allows that cycle to continue, essentially. How to go about doing that? I honestly don't know. I'd much rather have things they way they are/were than some 'safe space' bullshit though, with all that said.
That's because you, yourself, was a kid back then. The very heirs of your paragraph is implying at one point you, too, will leave and past the torch as your predecessors did before you. Don't you get it? That means what I am saying is entirely true: The demographic shift is causing this community to rot slowly because people will grow out of Doom. Modding is nothing more than people being BORED with vanilla anything and decide to alter the game for something beyond what was made, and this community has only thrived on modding. That means everyone before even I showed up LONG grew out of Doom, and Doom will continue to dwindle as long as it competes with the games of now.

You have to understand that Doom competes with all games from then and now because the resource of the user is their time, and they have better things to do with their time and on better games.
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#42

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:02 am

Convenience and ease of play/install is definitely a factor against Doom. Why bother with spending money for a 20+ year old game to get dosbox? Then you have to go out of your way to get past all the port posturing and masturbation and further install another program that you have to configure. Take a look at the tracker, just installing Zan is rocket science for some. Then you have to get all the pwads every time you go to a new server. Compare this to other games where you download, install, quick key config (or none if console) and then you hop right into the action.

Also, yes poor sponge probably jumped for joy when that QCon tournament was over. It meant he didn't have to deal with doom autism over a simple duel tournament anymore. Recall he also had to deal with the duelers who were playing on Odamex at that time and possibly people like Jkist who are dead set on the idea that duel has to play their way. He was just a normal guy who had to unfortunately interact with a community full of severely abnormal people.

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#43

Post by Doomkid » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:53 am

Interesting reply, Mobius - I think you make a lot of great points. No rebuttal because frankly the things you said make perfect sense. Even if it is a 100 to 1 minority (as it's really always been even since the early 00's as you said) I still hope the community continues to get some fresh blood in, enough to keep things rolling to some degree. There are newer, fresher games out there and plenty of them, but I know there are those people out there like myself and much of the MP community who, regardless of when they start, and for whatever bizarre reason, come to have this tism-like love for the game and desire to keep it alive. Hopefully there are enough who feel that way and aren't also lame "no fun allowed" assholes or just unsociable in general to keep some sort of pulse beating in the world of MP Doom.
It meant he didn't have to deal with doom autism over a simple duel tournament anymore.
It's weird how 'hardcore' (bad word but can't think of another) doomers are so goddamn picky and unwavering about port choice, dmflags etc etc.. I've always been an OS lamer but even then I'm always happy to play NS maps with NS dmflags, different ports and blah blah blah.. Wish more felt the same way

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#44

Post by Galactus » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:32 pm

@Ru5tk1ng Implying every single member in this community bought Doom instead of cheapily pirating it, then just downloading a zandronum installer and you're ready to go. Severely understanding the intelligence of People here.
@Mobius what you say isn't the case for everyone. I started playing Doom, because I wanted too not because I couldn't play anything Else

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#45

Post by HumanBones » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:35 pm

Mobius wrote: You aren't getting it. This isn't about you. This is about the demographic changes and it shows. The kids of then, including you, moved to Doom because options were limited and Doom was as fresh as their age. Doom came out in 93 and I'll say not a lot of the major activity then and 2010 was around my age group with very few exceptions. That age group even in the IDL span from 24 to 28 with very few players roughly hitting 30 and they are gone. You say a lot of players choose Doom over the new stuff then, but those games you mentioned were and still is extremely popular beyond any activity peak Doom had on a good day. Counterstrike is still played for money which is something Doom never truly got except whenever Jkist had to sell his phone to pay chewy in ZDDL or when Bones had to put out a mortgage to pay Jenova's team.. on STEAM!
Dew ended up paying the majority of that team money for WoW, the only person I ended up buying things for was Zakken on steam (goes to show how much people actually give a shit about doom) :D

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#46

Post by princetontiger » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:47 pm

Regardless of what people are saying: The Zandro community has significantly compressed this year.

I don't understand the point of single player Doom anymore. I've played countless of WADs by myself, but multiplayer survival is way more fun.

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#47

Post by Mobius » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:21 pm

Galactus wrote: @Mobius what you say isn't the case for everyone. I started playing Doom, because I wanted too not because I couldn't play anything Else
Like i told Doomkid: This isn't about you and numbers say a lot more than your personal anecdote.

How old are you? 18? You were like 12 or whatever when you were first lurking here which proves my point about the demographic shift, and Doom itself isn't a competitor against shit like Overwatch or Mass Effect. It doesn't matter what Mobius or Galactus decided to pick years ago to waste their time on. The big scope is that the many Galactuses and Mobiuses decided this place isn't fun anymore and left and we don't have a return on the exchange.
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#48

Post by Ænima » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:33 am

we need to just have a holy week where all the awesome community dropouts can just stop having lives for 7 days or take a vacation or something and commit to playing all the classics for 5 hours a day

it would bring tears to my eyes dawg straightup


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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#49

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:07 am

@Ru5tk1ng Implying every single member in this community bought Doom instead of cheapily pirating it, then just downloading a zandronum installer and you're ready to go. Severely understanding the intelligence of People here.
Who said anything about the Zan community? I was specifically talking about the nonsense someone who is barely getting into doom online in the modern era has to go through. Then again it's all just speculation since there are no new players anyway.

And no, there are some really fucking stupid people in the community. But that's mainly because they are kids and that's seemingly been the demographic since the ST days.
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Can't ever forget the cringe you experienced looking at those games either. D:
DoomKid wrote:It's weird how 'hardcore' (bad word but can't think of another) doomers are so goddamn picky and unwavering about port choice, dmflags etc etc.. I've always been an OS lamer but even then I'm always happy to play NS maps with NS dmflags, different ports and blah blah blah.. Wish more felt the same way
It's strange that Doom is one of the few from its day that doesn't have it's community unified under 1 port or spread over only 2. On the SP side you have people split over ZDoom and PrBoom+. Obviously the MP side is split 3 ways which is probably the saddest aspect of multiplayer. Though honestly both conflicts can be summed up as: I like new things or I like the feeling of nostalgia. Then again, the entire community as a whole has always been dysfunctional, it's just now everyone actually realizes it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#50

Post by Mobius » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:10 am

i doubt it's nostalgia and more so Zdaemon having some fixed ssg or Odamex meme mouse
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#51

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:20 am

It was the only the competitive scene that cared about that. Players that liked the new modes and modding options migrated to or chose ST/Zandronum. Others who liked pretend classic play with a few nice to haves did ZDaemon. Odamex catered to compet players and that's all who really played it. And you forgot to add exploiting OGL for Zandronum.

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#52

Post by Catastrophe » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:23 am

Ru5tK1ng wrote:Convenience and ease of play/install is definitely a factor against Doom. Why bother with spending money for a 20+ year old game to get dosbox? Then you have to go out of your way to get past all the port posturing and masturbation and further install another program that you have to configure. Take a look at the tracker, just installing Zan is rocket science for some.
Yes, exactly this. The main reason I even got into Doom was because of how easy Zdaemon was to setup. Simply install, make an account, play! No hassle of setting anything up. I will admit that had Zdaemon not automatically downloaded doom2.wad, I probably wouldn't be here. Who knows how many more are like me in this regard.
Then you have to get all the pwads every time you go to a new server. Compare this to other games where you download, install, quick key config (or none if console) and then you hop right into the action.
However, I do disagree with this. Getting pwads is really easy and simple, the proof is with Garry's Mod, where finding games on that is very similar to Zandro. Basically: Server browser -> join game -> download files if needed. The fact GMod still has a ton of players shows that the system of downloading mods isn't at fault. Conceptually both Zandro and GMod are very similar. But GMod has more players, so what gives? Lets set aside the fact that GMod is on Steam. Sure it helps, but I'd argue it isn't really big factor since it's easy to set up.

The big differences (in my biased opinion) that set GMod and Zandro apart is simple;

1. There is no manual setup: You don't need a base file to play GMod. If you're missing the GMod equivalent of doom2.wad (which is basically Counter-Strike) it'll still let you play but the resources will be using placeholder textures/models.
2. It's really easy to find what you wanna play.

Lets take look at point 1. Unlike Zandro, GMod freely lets you go in any server you want. If you're missing Counter-Strike then it'll simply use placeholder models/textures for those specific resources and still let you play. The easiest solution to this for Zandronum is having a legal placeholder doom2.wad that is pre-packaged with Zandronum. This would hypothetically let you connect to non vanilla maps (basically most servers) and play with others. The only stuff placed inside this placeholder doom2.wad would be texture/sprite replacements for everything in Doom 2 (which can honestly be just taken from freedoom.wad). No code would have to be replaced since ZDoom uses its own DECORATE now for monsters, weapons, etc instead of the native C++ code. If this can be achieved then casuals can play popular servers without doom2.wad (obviously ones not using doom 2 maps), which would help a ton.

As for point 2, the matter of fact is GMod makes it painfully easy to find what you wanna play. The mod has different server browsers for different mods. You click on what mod you wanna play and viola, a server browser will pop with a list of servers that are hosting that mod specifically. Zandro can't do this since we don't have that amount of players, but I think there's a simple solution that can be a nice middleground. Currently, a lot of the mods are misclassified on the server browser - ie Zombie Horde and Complex Doom share the same game mode, Survival. So for a casual player, finding a server that's hosting Zombie Horde is difficult. The most reasonable solution is to make it so modders can set the gamemode name for their mods and display it accordingly on server browsers. So instead of the default "Survival" it could instead show up as "Zombie Horde", which would be a win-win for all parties.
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#53

Post by Lollipop » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:11 pm

I think Catastrophe is right, though maybe we could just bundle freedom itself rather than a ripped texture version of it? We could possibly do that for all the current free replacements actually.
And the second proposal is pretty neat, though I guess it currently works with an enum? I don't know but it sounds logical that it would, in which case it might be tricky to do.

Also, someone mentioned before that being able to press an update button to update the game would be beneficial. This has already been discussed for and against ect., but it's still one of the advantages modern games have over zan, albeit not an enormous one with the release schedule we have, bar beta releases which won't be using an updater anyway.

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#54

Post by Ivan » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:34 pm

Catastrophe wrote: Lets take look at point 1. Unlike Zandro, GMod freely lets you go in any server you want. If you're missing Counter-Strike then it'll simply use placeholder models/textures for those specific resources and still let you play. The easiest solution to this for Zandronum is having a legal placeholder doom2.wad that is pre-packaged with Zandronum. This would hypothetically let you connect to non vanilla maps (basically most servers) and play with others. The only stuff placed inside this placeholder doom2.wad would be texture/sprite replacements for everything in Doom 2 (which can honestly be just taken from freedoom.wad). No code would have to be replaced since ZDoom uses its own DECORATE now for monsters, weapons, etc instead of the native C++ code. If this can be achieved then casuals can play popular servers without doom2.wad (obviously ones not using doom 2 maps), which would help a ton.

As for point 2, the matter of fact is GMod makes it painfully easy to find what you wanna play. The mod has different server browsers for different mods. You click on what mod you wanna play and viola, a server browser will pop with a list of servers that are hosting that mod specifically. Zandro can't do this since we don't have that amount of players, but I think there's a simple solution that can be a nice middleground. Currently, a lot of the mods are misclassified on the server browser - ie Zombie Horde and Complex Doom share the same game mode, Survival. So for a casual player, finding a server that's hosting Zombie Horde is difficult. The most reasonable solution is to make it so modders can set the gamemode name for their mods and display it accordingly on server browsers. So instead of the default "Survival" it could instead show up as "Zombie Horde", which would be a win-win for all parties.
I like this idea actually. There's FreeDoom for this right? We could bundle it together just in case the user doesn't have doom2.wad.
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#55

Post by Combinebobnt » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:51 pm

Make doom2 free today. where's jace hall?... Also peedoom still lacks the doom2 maps which random servers love to use and nobody is gonna get nostalgic over looking at it lol. At least it lets you play. Someone code the zandro auto updater for torr like he asked... please...

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#56

Post by Catastrophe » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:46 pm

@ Everyone saying we should package freedoom; that doesn't solve the issue. Packaging freedoom would be the equivalent of packaging shareware doom with Zandro; no one would play it since almost every server uses doom2.wad and not freedoom/shareware doom. What would solve the issue is letting people connect to servers using doom2.wad when they have a supplementary wad loaded. This supplementary wad would need replacements for all the sprites/textures they are missing from doom2 (freedoom sprites/textures is perfect for this). The drawback would be inability to play doom 2 maps as you can't perfectly replicate all those maps - but I think that's fair.

As bob points out it'll be bad when servers randomly decide to swap to doom2 maps, but I disagree on this. Almost no one plays vanilla doom maps unless it's prop hunt or hide and seek. A vast majority of servers have pwads loaded that replace them. Some people already can't play certain doom2 maps if you have bfg-edition or some other old pirated copy so I don't think it's a big loss. Simply kicking them out for authentication failure and telling them to get doom2.wad should, while not casual friendly, be good enough.

If you wanna wrap this back to GMod, most servers there don't use counter-strike maps or any source game maps at all. Most of them run their own sets of maps just like Zandro now.
Someone code the zandro auto updater for torr like he asked... please...
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#57

Post by Ivan » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:24 pm

Catastrophe wrote:@ Everyone saying we should package freedoom; that doesn't solve the issue. Packaging freedoom would be the equivalent of packaging shareware doom with Zandro; no one would play it since almost every server uses doom2.wad and not freedoom/shareware doom. What would solve the issue is letting people connect to servers using doom2.wad when they have a supplementary wad loaded. This supplementary wad would need replacements for all the sprites/textures they are missing from doom2 (freedoom sprites/textures is perfect for this). The drawback would be inability to play doom 2 maps as you can't perfectly replicate all those maps - but I think that's fair.
I did realize that being a potential problem but honestly nobody even wants to play original doom 2 maps anymore. I don't see the problem here.
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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#58

Post by mifu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:31 am

Sorry for taking a long time to post but I gota address some points here.

There is one thing I mainly disagree with
Mobius wrote:
Doomkid wrote:I just don't want them to be turned away because they think the Zand community in particular is basically unapproachable.
They wouldn't know about our reputation if they are new UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE is feeding that information. You have anyone to blame then blame it on the old SJW retards in Doomworld or the stuck-up airheads in Zdoom. Honestly it's funny because the guy who did Quakecon for Doom regretted it after experiencing the hilarity of Doomworld's community. Can you conceive what a new person will even begin to imagine with their political anti-white propaganda? That's not Zandronum. That's Doomworld. That's our shared reputation as long as that cancer of a forum continues to exist unchallenged.
Doomkid wrote:It's not nearly as bad as people act imo (funny as hell and entertaining actually, generally speaking) but I've heard various people saying they avoid this place because it seems too hostile or pretentious or some other shit along those lines, people who I'm guessing would otherwise play online at least occasionally.
This is an excuse to not come over because the single player side is literally a safe-space, and again anyone who is actually new wouldn't KNOW about Zandronum unless they are getting second-hand information. That means whoever is turning off people to the multiplayer side is doing the disservice and not us, and that is usually single-player kiddies ruining it for everyone. Blame them.

Anyone who says we are unapproachable who isn't from this community is who you turn your guns on, because they are making us look like something we aren't. When was the last time we had a huge drama fest that changed the port? 2015? The time before that? 2013 or 2014? Then within those years and now no drama.. huh. Our forums are quiet and dead compared to the lethany of rhetorical garbage coming out of Doomworld on a regular basis? Spare me, but I know this isn't you Doomkid. So don't take this as hostilities.
Now i suppose your half right, whoever is spreading miss-information is doing a disservice. What I have a problem with really is the fact that you have blamed two separate communities. I know when i called that "worthless meeting" the other time we had Term advising us that some people think the community was shit but we did not get who was saying that. I doubt Doomworld hates us at all. Unless i'm missing something, i think you just threw Doomworld under the good ole bus. Probably Zdoom also.

Stuff like this.... is probably hurting inter community relations and its something we need to stop doing. If I am missing something though, examples would be good.. otherwise lets not blame doomworld and zdoom for our troubles.

But otherwise I agree with the rest of your points. I myself am finding it hard to play since i'm mostly at work all the time. Most don't get to even see me on the playerlist anyways due to timezones.

And I agree with everything else, except mods killing the community part.

There has been people here who have blamed popular mods such as complex doom and mm8bit dm for the player decline. Thats a bit shitty and the fact people choose to do nothing based on this saddens me. Without those mods (despite complex doom being ... complex doom) I dont think zandronum would even be here right now. If you really think those mods are killing the community, if you truly for some forsaken reason believe in that then all you have to do is play something different or make something of your own. Those mods are not killing the community, but your lack of willingness may be a factor in its decline.

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#59

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:56 am

And I agree with everything else, except mods killing the community part.
Uh, who the fuck said that again? I don't think anyone ever made that statement. ST/Zan is built on mods and lives by mods.
I know when i called that "worthless meeting" the other time we had Term advising us that some people think the community was shit but we did not get who was saying that. I doubt Doomworld hates us at all. Unless i'm missing something, i think you just threw Doomworld under the good ole bus. Probably Zdoom also.
I don't think it was doomworld that much. Terminus doesn't hang around those parts. It was probably some facet of zdoom.
Last edited by Ru5tK1ng on Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is the Zandro Community dying?

#60

Post by Mobius » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:58 am

I'm afraid you may have misread my post Mifu which is unfortunate.
Mifu wrote:Now i suppose your half right, whoever is spreading miss-information is doing a disservice. What I have a problem with really is the fact that you have blamed two separate communities. I know when i called that "worthless meeting" the other time we had Term advising us that some people think the community was shit but we did not get who was saying that. I doubt Doomworld hates us at all. Unless i'm missing something, i think you just threw Doomworld under the good ole bus. Probably Zdoom also.
Because Mifu.. they are to be blamed. Most of the culprits of Zandronum slander come from the single player parties and that's either meme-Terminus twitch TV tier /vr/ Zandronum players from shadowy discord cliques that aren't vocal unless it's from behind the safety of their safe space, or Doomworld/Zdoom which both are laden in 2009 skulltag era impressions long dead. There's no beating around the bush here about it. I threw them under the bus for good reason having read or interacted with them and knowing the names of some of the proponents there. At this point there's no reason other then to be totally wrong by calling the elephant in the room pink or be totally right when it decides to NOT color itself pink. There's no losing move here.
Mifu wrote:Stuff like this.... is probably hurting inter community relations and its something we need to stop doing. If I am missing something though, examples would be good.. otherwise lets not blame doomworld and zdoom for our troubles.
You mean a trouble we all have shared for decades and let slide for the sake of some faux maturity? Yeah. That has worked well with us before. Honestly I rather confront any issue we have with those who do believe and tell others about our "reputation" so we can either resolve it or dispute it. Since Doomworld is so cancerous to turn off Sponge with its hilarious autism I figured this is a great opportunity to address Doom as a whole since they also hurt us as well.
Mifu wrote: And I agree with everything else, except mods killing the community part..
I never said anything like this. I said modding is a symptom of boredom people have with the standard game, and you will be dead wrong to dispute this with me. Everyone and anyone who ever slaps on a mod will not touch the classic game at a certain point because of boredom. This isn't killing the community. The community is already killed in certain parts largely because of boredom and no modding will ever fix that. My proposal was to merge developers together which would revitalize Zandro/Zdoom and bridge port relations (with a turbulent beginning no doubt), but never had I said modding killed anything. Modding just means the game was already in death-throes, and now other forces beyond doom accelerated it. I suggested the low hanging fruit: age demographics.
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