Is the Zandro Community dying?

[mifu]

And I agree with everything else, except mods killing the community part..

I never said anything like this. I said modding is a symptom of boredom people have with the standard game, and you will be dead wrong to dispute this with me. Everyone and anyone who ever slaps on a mod will not touch the classic game at a certain point because of boredom. This isn't killing the community. The community is already killed in certain parts largely because of boredom and no modding will ever fix that. My proposal was to merge developers together which would revitalize Zandro/Zdoom and bridge port relations (with a turbulent beginning no doubt), but never had I said modding killed anything. Modding just means the game was already in death-throes, and now other forces beyond doom accelerated it. I suggested the low hanging fruit: age demographics.

This line was referring to every other post not made by you, and those who said they stopped making anything due to certain mods. This one was not directed to you but earlier posts made by others in this thread on the first and 2nd pages (Read: https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 44#p106474 ). Sorry about the confusion about that. I probably did not explain myself great in that.

Either way yes, mods fuel the community but there's some people who blame certain popular mods for its decline, some who have actually not posted in this thread after I linked them it. That is what I meant. It's funny we got spectators looking at this thread and posting in various irc channels or whatever but they do not want to post here.

As for the Doomworld stuff I'm not too sure what I think about that anymore. It's kinda hard to believe some folks from Doomworld would hold such a opinion after 8 years if we are talking about skulltag era happenings. I'm interested in checking that out. Anyways that will do me for now.

[Doomkid]

@ Everyone saying we should package freedoom; that doesn't solve the issue. Packaging freedoom would be the equivalent of packaging shareware doom with Zandro; no one would play it since almost every server uses doom2.wad and not freedoom/shareware doom. What would solve the issue is letting people connect to servers using doom2.wad when they have a supplementary wad loaded. This supplementary wad would need replacements for all the sprites/textures they are missing from doom2 (freedoom sprites/textures is perfect for this). The drawback would be inability to play doom 2 maps as you can't perfectly replicate all those maps - but I think that's fair.

ZDaemon actually already does this and it's a great feature. By default, starting a doom2 server also enables an option for users to connect using freedoom as the iwad instead. Server hosts can turn it off of course but since most servers run modified maps, the only difference is the graphics themselves. It would be cool for all C/S ports to do this and come packed with the latest freedoom.

[ibm5155]

Indeed, it's not a bad move that if you don't have the doom2.wad you could simply load freedoom.wad .
The only servers that are going to blame are the ones that are playing vanilla doom maps, but even people with a pirate copy of doom2 are going to get a kick in that case...

And from the top 10 servers from today, we have none that are being played in vanilla doom maps.

EDIT: That sounds like a feature for doomsekers and not zandronum to implement.

[Galactus]

The only servers that are going to blame are the ones that are playing vanilla doom maps, but even people with a pirate copy of doom2 are going to get a kick in that case...

You can easily find an IWADPatcher

[Vulpeka]

Its not skulltag guys, we don't have all the features that skulltag had. To restart the community is for people to host their own servers like back in the day.

[Zakken]

Its not skulltag guys, we don't have all the features that skulltag had.

What do you mean? Zandronum is literally a continuation of Skulltag that has everything that it had, and more (granted that you have the Skulltag content PK3).

To restart the community is for people to host their own servers like back in the day.

Not sure if you're referring to restarting the community as a good or bad thing, but I surely don't miss the old days with makeshift homemade servers that would crap themselves from having any more than 8 players or simply refuse to run mods like ZDoom Wars smoothly (I was one of those humble hosts :c ). We even have an automated server creator to make your server hosting needs into trivial matters now. I think everyone agrees that quality and number of servers is not a current day issue at all.

[Vulpeka]

Its not skulltag guys, we don't have all the features that skulltag had.

What do you mean? Zandronum is literally a continuation of Skulltag that has everything that it had, and more (granted that you have the Skulltag content PK3).

To restart the community is for people to host their own servers like back in the day.

Not sure if you're referring to restarting the community as a good or bad thing, but I surely don't miss the old days with makeshift homemade servers that would crap themselves from having any more than 8 players or simply refuse to run mods like ZDoom Wars smoothly (I was one of those humble hosts :c ). We even have an automated server creator to make your server hosting needs into trivial matters now. I think everyone agrees that quality and number of servers is not a current day issue at all.

I just got back been gone since 2013 I haven't been in touch with things.

I think splitting off the content and code was a bad idea it had to be done but an optional pk3 isn't the best fix. I just miss the skulltag exclusive items they are there still but now they are optional which means they are not implemented like they where used too, they added a new element to the game.

I miss homemade servers because it allowed people to play virtually any wad file easier and not just popular wads. It was also good for clans I hosted many successful servers on low end hardware but this was of course before resource intensive wads came out. High player counts don't matter if the wad isn't a resource hog.

[Marcaek]

The Skulltag assets being split off affect literally nothing, and the link provided in that post allows anyone to host whatever they want.

[Vulpeka]

You cant say something being split effects nothing.

Yeah I looked at the website still prefer the old way and being directly in charge of my custom server.

Its cool that you guys came up with all this new stuff but the problem is still the same. There are a billion of community made pwads and no incentive to play something NEW. Everything that is groundbreaking gets overplayed same with game modes that go underplayed.

So in short we have had this awesome port for many years and people don't even want to use all the features.

We are always so quick to want something new that we forget that people played doom vanilla and still had fun.

[Zakken]

I think splitting off the content and code was a bad idea it had to be done but an optional pk3 isn't the best fix. I just miss the skulltag exclusive items they are there still but now they are optional which means they are not implemented like they where used too, they added a new element to the game.

It's not difficult to acquire the Skulltag content PK3, and it has the exact same feel as it did before. I really don't think anything's been tampered with.

I miss homemade servers because it allowed people to play virtually any wad file easier and not just popular wads. It was also good for clans I hosted many successful servers on low end hardware but this was of course before resource intensive wads came out. High player counts don't matter if the wad isn't a resource hog.

You can also upload any wad you'd like to AFTS's database, just as long as it's not malicious or belongs to their blacklist. I've used it a number of times to play many slightly obscure wads before. You can also delete wads you uploaded previously if they aren't meant to be publically available!

Yeah I looked at the website still prefer the old way and being directly in charge of my custom server.

You still have control of the servers you create through AFTS. These drawbacks you speak of are subjective at best and have no factual evidence. I can understand if this is a matter of sentimentality, but AFTS (and Best Ever before it) has objectively helped the community a great deal when it comes to making quality servers without needing a fast, uncompromised and port-forwarded connection.

Its cool that you guys came up with all this new stuff but the problem is still the same. There are a billion of community made pwads and no incentive to play something NEW. Everything that is groundbreaking gets overplayed same with game modes that go underplayed.

So in short we have had this awesome port for many years and people don't even want to use all the features.

We are always so quick to want something new that we forget that people played doom vanilla and still had fun.

So... does the problem lie in people not being incentivated to play something new and innovative, or simply in people not playing classic worthwhile things that have gone under the radar because they're only playing the new stuff? Regardless of your problem, gathering a group of friends to populate a server of your choosing is an efficient way of attracting more people and seeing your favourite wad(s) get playtime.

[Vulpeka]

It's not difficult to acquire the Skulltag content PK3, and it has the exact same feel as it did before. I really don't think anything's been tampered with.

I remember jumping on about a year ago and there where multiple versions of this file with different versions being used on different servers. That is what makes it confusing.

You can also upload any wad you'd like to AFTS's database, just as long as it's not malicious or belongs to their blacklist. I've used it a number of times to play many slightly obscure wads before. You can also delete wads you uploaded previously if they aren't meant to be publically available!

Cool i'm glad something like this exists.

You still have control of the servers you create through AFTS. These drawbacks you speak of are subjective at best and have no factual evidence. I can understand if this is a matter of sentimentality, but AFTS (and Best Ever before it) has objectively helped the community a great deal when it comes to making quality servers without needing a fast, uncompromised and port-forwarded connection.

I've been gone for awhile so I really have to try this. Looks like its mostly console commands. Does it use any UI?

You only need a fast connection for high resource wads.

So... does the problem lie in people not being incentivated to play something new and innovative, or simply in people not playing classic worthwhile things that have gone under the radar because they're only playing the new stuff? Regardless of your problem, gathering a group of friends to populate a server of your choosing is an efficient way of attracting more people and seeing your favourite wad(s) get playtime.

I used to host my own servers they were big and we played all sorts of wads. My custom servers however were always clan servers and we did attract people all the time. Gathering a group of friends is always better in a custom server because it can be actively moderated.

To get people to play new stuff is the community's job. Its really time to use servers to promote other wads and use a community based system like the forums or IRC to fill these servers.

I know it sounds silly but maybe its time we teach people what doom has to offer, and that means digging though a large wad archive.

We as a community have the tools to fix this problem which has existed for years

[mifu]

AFTS will be upgraded to a web interface this saturday.

[NachtIntellect]

My opinion is actually completely biased, the community is full of people who seem to have lost the ability to not take the internet seriously all of this order and things that must be enforced is all fine and well but it feels oppressive, while I don't exactly see the need to cater to everyone's personal taste, disorder of some kind somewhat brings people to forums look at multiple boards that still have drama on them, everyone flocks to it although that wouldn't solve anything about people playing Zandronum online again.

Keep in mind I actually wanted to say some pretty mean things about this community and Doom communities in general which is actually the hard truth but I held back no doubt whatever I say will be overturned anyway and seen as an attack on someone.

[Lollipop]

It's not difficult to acquire the Skulltag content PK3, and it has the exact same feel as it did before. I really don't think anything's been tampered with.

I know it sounds silly but maybe its time we teach people what doom has to offer, and that means digging though a large wad archive.

I find it difficult to find things to play. TSPG is a rather great archive and we have its staff right here on this forum!

So, @TSPG-staff: could it be possible to add features to the TSPG archive that would make it easier to browse the content that is available? The only search option is by name to find a file download for something you know what is called, which is great for when you know what exactly you are looking for, but what about when you are just browsing?
The only other option is to go through all the archive entries linearly, which isn't feasible for an archive of that size, and there will be so many wads that won't be of interest that it could quickly become a hopeless endeavor.
Perhaps categorization options and maybe tags could do something to help with browsing through the files. Maybe different versions of the same mod can be listed under some sort of folder entry for the sake of convenience.

Just a thought, it could be pretty cool though. :)

[Vulpeka]

Keep in mind I actually wanted to say some pretty mean things about this community and Doom communities in general which is actually the hard truth but I held back no doubt whatever I say will be overturned anyway and seen as an attack on someone.

That's true I feel the same way but I play Xbox now so i'm just kinda wadding in the kiddie pool here.

You shouldn't take the internet seriously only millennials and people who don't go outside do. LOL


Really its the same problem we have always had, PLUS I read somewhere that people said they grew up. I started playing when I was 17 and i'm 27 its been a long 10 years I haven't been active in the recent years but that's because the older you get the less time you have for this stuff.

The main thing going for skulltag back in the the day was people didn't have powerful computers. However with the mass adoption of mobile phones computers got faster and cheaper. Also Intel which had horrible graphics finally got its act together allowing computers with newer intel graphics to play other games.

Blame Minecraft too its very easy to pirate just like a doom2 wad and lots of people play it. Most slower computers can run it too!!

[ibm5155]

The only servers that are going to blame are the ones that are playing vanilla doom maps, but even people with a pirate copy of doom2 are going to get a kick in that case...

You can easily find an IWADPatcher

from what I remember people tried to ban any kind of IWADPatcher that worked with the pirate copy of doom 2 (if I remember it's the 1.666 iwad version)

[Vulpeka]

So there's finally anti-piracy measures wow. I eventually bought my copy on Steam. What about Pwads isn't there a system to check the consistency of those also.

[Zakken]

I can guarantee you that there are plenty of far more important things for developers to be working on than anti-piracy measures on a 23 years old game.

[Vulpeka]

I can guarantee you that there are plenty of far more important things for developers to be working on than anti-piracy measures on a 23 years old game.

What about Pwads isn't there a system to check the consistency of those also.

I'm more concerned with PWADS then IWADS but I get you can confuse the two.

Anyone remember the PWAD exploit!!

[jdagenet]

Why would you put anti-piracy on a... pwad? Sounds like some LCA shenanigans.