Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

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Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#1

Post by fr blood » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:04 pm

Hellow everyone after playing a certain amount of mods/maps on DM/CTF, I've noticed that only a few use Skulltag Weapons.

In the future I'm probably going to try my first PvP map, so here is my questions:

- Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?
- Do you guys like Skulltag Weapons ?

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#2

Post by Ænima » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:17 pm

Yes, to my knowledge the ST weapons were designed for PVP, although they work very well against monsters too.

The minigun is a good spray-and-pray weapon.

The grenade launcher is good for tight hallways and area denial.

The railgun is good for sharpshooting. Also great for wiping out crowds of monsters in invasion.

The BFG10K is just an overpowered piece of crap and I guess it's good for everything.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#3

Post by Frits » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:47 pm

Ænima wrote: The BFG10K is just an overpowered piece of crap and I guess it's good for everything.
I would say 10K is the only sidegrade (long vs short 9K), it's absolutely op at long range but sucks at short range.
Every other weapon is a straight upgrade for its slot, especially the minigun is a pvp gun of doom.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#4

Post by fr blood » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:22 pm

For me only the Minigun is an op(not needed) weapon, it's just a better variant of the chaingun but other weapons are fine because they give a new sort of gameplay:

- Grenade Launcher: Bouncing projectiles that can make us hold a position for longer.
- Railgun: it's like a sniper and can go thru players.
- BFG10K: the long range BFG, nothing better on medium/big place.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#5

Post by Konda » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:22 pm

Well, let's see:
  • Minigun - It has about the same precision as the chaingun and it's twice as powerful. If someone is far away from you, and they don't have the minigun, they're pretty much fucked. By the time they reach you so they can land a hit with their inferior non-sniper weapon, they'll be dead. In a couple of seconds. This is something I oftenly observe in Skulltag DM maps. So no, minigun is not a fair weapon for PvP.
  • Grenade launcher - It's great for landing hits on areas without exposing youself. But let's be real, this is Doom, the players move at the speed of a car. You're much more likely to score a kill by blitzing inside the area and quickly killing someone with a direct hit than by spamming grenades around the corner.
    So, no, grenades are not useful for "around the corner" situations in classic ST multiplayer. What they are useful for, though, is spamming a room with them and waiting for someone to accidentally walk into them. In reality, that's what the grenade launcher is mostly useful for in MP. In games like coop/survival, the grenade lancuher serves its purpose well. Also in multiplayer mods where the gameplay is not as fast-paced and where you can eliminate campers.
  • Railgun - while it is very powerful, you have to land 2 hits to kill someone. But then again, the railgun fires rather quickly before it runs out of its 4 shots after which it has to reload. Not sure what to think about it. But I'll say it's not very fair since the rail shots are fired rather quickly one after another, so you have a good chance to kill someone quickly if your aim is good enough. If you aim is very good, this argument becomes the minigun argument I mentioned previously.
  • BFG10k - This is not even worth considering, everyone knows that it's OP as fuck. If you can't OHKO snipe them with the sniper-chaingun, you're in luck, because it has explosive bullets with the explosive power of a rocket launcher. GG. It serves as a nice alternative to the BFG though, which is its original purpose I guess.
In conclusion: No, skulltag weapons are not good for PvP, unless it's something like deathmatch where the fun of killing people is more important than the skill you have. This is hevily emphasized in Skulltag DM maps, where, right next to the already-not-so-fair ST weapons, you have doomspheres, turbospheres, rage/spread runes, regeneration...

If the minigun had more spread, and had both horizontal and vertical spread, it wouldn't be such a sniper. It would be to chaingun what SSG is to shotgun. Then, a fight between minigun and SSG would be more fair. If the SSG guy is good enough, he'll take out the minigunner in one shot regardless of how good the minigunner is. But if the SSG guy is not accurate enough, then the minigunner has the chance to wipe him out while he's reloading.

Also, railgun would be more fair, if instead of firing 4 shots quickly before making a pause, it didn't have that pause and fired each shot with more delay after fire. Let's say it reloaded after every shot the way the current railgun reloads, but a bit faster.
Last edited by Konda on Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#6

Post by Doomkid » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:48 pm

The only one I'd consider acceptable is a modified, notably slower version of the railgun. It's nice to have a true sniping weapon, but in Skulltag it fires too fast to be fair.

Carnevil actually made the BFG10k weaker originally and people complained, hence how OP it is. I guess the BFG should be, though, but there's no strategy or special way to use it like with the 9k - there's no trick to getting it right other than "stand back".

So yeah, when a bit slower, the rail is alright. The rest are pretty OP. Still fun to use against monsters and such though.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#7

Post by Galactus » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:15 pm

Both the railgun and the grenade launcher are okay weapons for pvp. The other ones are quite overpowered.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#8

Post by ibm5155 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:36 pm

Skulltag weapons are op? and what about the super shotgun that people use to use 99% of the times that most of the times can kill everyone with a single shot ?
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#9

Post by Medicris » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:38 pm

Frits wrote: I would say 10K is the only sidegrade (long vs short 9K), it's absolutely op at long range but sucks at short range.
Given the perfect accuracy of giant explosions, I'd say it should've had at least minor horizontal spread (same as shotgun's or more) to make its best use a matter of putting themselves at risk in midrange rather than able to blast a dime from the far end of D2DM10.

To keep with your range theme here, a badly played BFG shot can be countered by an SSG to the face, a badly played BFG10K (too open) should at least be somewhat counterable by a railgun to the face.

And yeah, I've always disliked the spamcannon. It also has a reloading mechanic tacked on that no other gun in the game has because... uh, there was no other way to balance it? Either way, it's okay if you miss two shots, you can just quickly spam two more.

So yeah, not really, though they work well enough in Invasion scenarios. Good thing eonweps was made!
Last edited by Medicris on Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#10

Post by Doomkid » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:21 pm

ibm5155 wrote: Skulltag weapons are op? and what about the super shotgun that people use to use 99% of the times that most of the times can kill everyone with a single shot ?
At medium to far range, the minigun kills it, only a really well placed rail can stop them, not much else. Depending on the map layout of course, but generally speaking.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#11

Post by Ænima » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:47 pm

I always felt like the Minigun and 10K needed a delay before firing, that's why I gave them one in Super Skulltag. Also made the 10k reload after 16 shots IIRC and that balanced out pretty well in PvP because it means you have to plan out your spam attacks and then go balls-to-the-wall before getting gunned down, instead of camping in one spot and instantly spraying an endless amount of death at everything that moves.

Also gave the minigun a lot more spread (horizontal AND vertical).
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#12

Post by Catastrophe » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:08 pm

Minigun - I don't think this is as OP as people make it out to be, but is strong like the SSG. It can work in pvp.
Grenade Launcher - This is a noskill gun in tight rooms. I'd consider this OP depending on the map.
Railgun - It was OP when it used to ignore armor. But now it doesn't I think, so it could be balanced. Though, I feel like all sniping weapons are usually OP in some form.
BFG10K - I actually think this is balanced as it has its drawbacks compared to the much safer BFG9000.

Overall, most of them are balanced, but the Grenade Launcher's bounciness should be drastically reduced in favor of a longer range shot. Also the railgun might be OP in LMS but not DM.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#13

Post by Ænima » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:48 pm

Catastrophe wrote: Also the railgun might be OP in LMS but not DM.
This is very true. I remember when STLMS was played a lot, the railgun would be the weapon used first by most skilled players in large maps. It's great for sniping when you spawn far away from everyone else and you really need to make those first shots count. SkullVomit, anyone?

But in DM the railgun is pretty useless unless it's a big open map (like the ones found in IGPack), because you're gonna spawn pretty close to your opponents and they're gonna SSG/rocket spam you to smithereens by the time you get 4 railgun shots off.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#14

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:19 pm

Railgun - It was OP when it used to ignore armor. But now it doesn't I think, so it could be balanced.
ST Railgun should still pierce armor. The ticket on the tracker for was all others that wanted the normal ZDoom railattack behavior (non-piercing).

All for the weapons, they all have their own quirks or problems, but that's why you can just take them and change them to how you see fit. Carn is an idiot, you have to fix what he didn't do right the first time.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#15

Post by Mobius » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:02 pm

I like how a lot of non-pvp players chimed in with elaborate posts about pvp weapons involving pvp balance.

Doom balance is pretty much one weapon for 10 or 15 minutes and then maybe another weapon until you run out of ammo for it. Unless it's D2m1, there's no need to get better with any other weapon but the ssg.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#16

Post by fr blood » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:44 pm

Thanks for you replies, so I must understand that Skulltag Weapon aren't the welcome.

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#17

Post by Ænima » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:44 pm

Mobius wrote: I like how a lot of non-pvp players chimed in with elaborate posts about pvp weapons involving pvp balance.
Yes because nobody who has posted in this thread has ever played a DM, LMS, CTF, Posession, or KoTH game on the Skulltag stock maps or on a map pack using the ST weapons such as STLMS, and therefore has no right to an opinion on their own experience with the ST weapons. Good call.
fr blood wrote: Thanks for you replies, so I must understand that Skulltag Weapon aren't the welcome.
They're not 100% horrible idealistically. They fill niches that the normal Doom weapons do not, especially if a mapper tailors their map to include good uses for them. However, the weapons "as is" don't balance well on most vanilla DM maps without the need to be modified more, as previously stated by others in this thread.
Last edited by Ænima on Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#18

Post by CallCenterHero » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:08 am

I used to think they were really cool... but as soon as someone told me about Eon Weaps... Skulltag's weapons look like crap now. Eon's SO much better for pvp. Haven't used either in a single player or coop situation, tho...

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RE: Are Skulltag weapons good for PvP ?

#19

Post by Zocker » Sun Feb 07, 2016 4:43 pm

ibm5155 wrote: Skulltag weapons are op? and what about the super shotgun that people use to use 99% of the times that most of the times can kill everyone with a single shot ?
Exactly. The meta in Doom is, was and always will be the SSG and people want to keep it that way. Somtimes a few people do some lame with the BFG9k.

If Doom 2 had introduced the Minigun and ST had introduced the SSG, I am sure people would be complaining about the SSG being an op piece of crap that can kill people instantly.

I like the fact that the weapons bring variation to some degree, making the game only about one type of weapon.

ST weapons are hardly more powerful than vanilla doom ones but I have to admit that therea are some long range problems with the Railgun and Minigun. However, that is nothing that could not be fixed with good map design (making the real problem the lack of demand for such maps and the desire to have some variation to begin with).

As for the Minigun, its high ammo consumption is already a drawback and so is the delay between salvos. Nonetheless with a higher spread I think the long range issue could be taken care of.

As it is, Doom pvp is: Learn to play with the SSG or look for another game. Derivations are not welcome.
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