Zandronum

I've been toying with a stat models for a while now as I've been trying to create an rpg mod. Having played a lot of rpgs, I've often come to question the necessity of the leveling system for growth. Mining experience really isn't the killer for me, but rather it's the random encounters of giant death monsters that kill the classic leveling system for me. Sure the system is meant so symbolize the growth (both literal and mental in most cases) of the characters in the story, but would a giant fly really prove too much for somebody who can light up a small town with fireballs? Scale isn't really the problem either; somebody who can through mammoth sized boulders can probably take a few hits from a dragon. Granted, it's insanely difficult to make a believable depiction of something like a mage locked in combat with a legendary swordsman but really it's all bound into the rules of the universe.
High fantasy aside, there are some issues with futuristic rpgs as well. Most of these use unique stat systems (i.e. not based on D20 or the classic 6 attribute stat build) and many nowadays are hybrids of rpgs and first person shooters. Mass Effect constantly puts the player in an outnumbered combat scenario (obviously to portray what a bad ass Shepard is) where the outcome is pretty much determined by what weapons you have. (Biotics can circumvent many weapons issues, I'm just making a general notion here.) Borderlands has some issues like midgets taking rockets to the chest (physics be damned, but god it's hilarious) and blowing you away with a shotgun that blows them off of their feet. You also get ripped apart by anything more than 8 levels above you, but the game is leveled to the player. It's just annoying to think that bandits across the bridge can take a sniper crit to the head and laugh at you and the ones in the field on your side die from you walking by.
So after experimenting with various build systems, I'm not entirely sure what the best way to go about designing a stat system is. I figure I should really just take a specific design and stick with it, but really I want to make a system that allows for a good balance between customization and appropriate scale.

A combination of perk based and build as you go might be fun.

get a perk option every time you hit a milestone in a specific stat, more perks becoming available as you pump more points into said stat.

But perhaps every level you get +1 to all stats, and a couple more points to distribute as you choose?

I like the Skyrim style where they give you all the different attributes you're working for and you can see what's at the top, but you have to balance them in order to actually survive because putting all your points in one tree will probably get you killed (with my experience on Hard and max-leveling all levels to 100.)

I liked Final Fantasy VIII's system (the monsters get stronger as you get stronger). I haven't witnessed any other system like it.

Razgriz wrote: I liked Final Fantasy VIII's system (the monsters get stronger as you get stronger). I haven't witnessed any other system like it.

But usually you can only get to areas with strong monsters when you're at a certain level, unless you fluke it. I think the "ff1" leveling system is best, keep it simple.

one_Two wrote:

Razgriz wrote: I liked Final Fantasy VIII's system (the monsters get stronger as you get stronger). I haven't witnessed any other system like it.

But usually you can only get to areas with strong monsters when you're at a certain level, unless you fluke it. I think the "ff1" leveling system is best, keep it simple.

lol what? I don't think you know what you're talking about since there isn't a thing like that...if anything, there is probably certain things you have to do before hand to reach certain places or get certain things..(most major thing is getting Ragnarok and then you can go to the islands closes to hell/heaven, or to go to the deep sea research center).

Razgriz wrote:

one_Two wrote:

Razgriz wrote: I liked Final Fantasy VIII's system (the monsters get stronger as you get stronger). I haven't witnessed any other system like it.

But usually you can only get to areas with strong monsters when you're at a certain level, unless you fluke it. I think the "ff1" leveling system is best, keep it simple.

lol what? I don't think you know what you're talking about since there isn't a thing like that...if anything, there is probably certain things you have to do before hand to reach certain places or get certain things..(most major thing is getting Ragnarok and then you can go to the islands closes to hell/heaven, or to go to the deep sea research center).

Maybe the confusion here is because I meant usually as in final fantasy in general as appose to that specific game. And I didn't mean "getting to areas" was enforced by your level, but take for instance ff9 (the best ff) there are parts of the game (most obviously before access to world map) that are quite clearly put there to make you grind up your level, you could skip past these and face monsters in other areas, but you would most likely die. In fact you can fuck up whole saves by doing this.

one_Two wrote:

Razgriz wrote:

one_Two wrote:

Razgriz wrote: I liked Final Fantasy VIII's system (the monsters get stronger as you get stronger). I haven't witnessed any other system like it.

But usually you can only get to areas with strong monsters when you're at a certain level, unless you fluke it. I think the "ff1" leveling system is best, keep it simple.

lol what? I don't think you know what you're talking about since there isn't a thing like that...if anything, there is probably certain things you have to do before hand to reach certain places or get certain things..(most major thing is getting Ragnarok and then you can go to the islands closes to hell/heaven, or to go to the deep sea research center).

Maybe the confusion here is because I meant usually as in final fantasy in general as appose to that specific game. And I didn't mean "getting to areas" was enforced by your level, but take for instance ff9 (the best ff) there are parts of the game (most obviously before access to world map) that are quite clearly put there to make you grind up your level, you could skip past these and face monsters in other areas, but you would most likely die. In fact you can fuck up whole saves by doing this.

Ahh, I see, but I was speaking about VIII only, though that clarifies everything. That though, would be kinda iffy so I do have to agree.

A combination of the D&D and the perk-based one sounds interesting to me.

Llewellyn wrote: I like the Skyrim style where they give you all the different attributes you're working for and you can see what's at the top, but you have to balance them in order to actually survive because putting all your points in one tree will probably get you killed (with my experience on Hard and max-leveling all levels to 100.)

This one seems to be the most realistic because you get better at what you're actually doing. Systems based on experience make no sense at all. Bash some monsters with a huge hammer and get better at solving problems through diplomacy. The downside for The Elder Scrolls-like system is that it is easily exploitable. Just see how easy it is to get smithing at 100% in Skyrim.

You may also consider system that relies on trainers. This was used in Gothic games and to some extent in Might&Magic 6-9. When you level up you gain arbitrary skill points that can be forged into actual skills by meeting up with a trainer dude and paying him cash to train you.

The problem about "Skyrim" is that there are no attributes to speak of. Only skills, which there should pretty much already be a fine system for. (Which is that you train skills by using them.)

Perks, that way is easier to know what you shall incrase and what not.

Bloax wrote: The problem about "Skyrim" is that there are no attributes to speak of. Only skills, which there should pretty much already be a fine system for. (Which is that you train skills by using them.)

Well actually a lot of the "skills" in skyrim really were "Attributes." Take Sneaking for instance. You don't JUST use it in combat, it makes you stealthier as a whole and therefore is an attribute, not a skill really.
Besides the fact that you picked your Health/Stam/Magic bonus every level up...

Bloax wrote: A combination of the D&D and the perk-based one sounds interesting to me.

Truthfully, the D20 system does have perks in the form of feats. However, the system is much stricter than the use of perks in Skyrim and Fallout. But when you get a 20th level fighter built, it would look an awful lot like a Skyrim "build" when you factored in all of his relative skills and ability scores. It is highly customizable but the parameters in general are pretty strict.

Now as far as xp and skill/attribute growth goes,

Zalewa wrote:

Llewellyn wrote: I like the Skyrim style where they give you all the different attributes you're working for and you can see what's at the top, but you have to balance them in order to actually survive because putting all your points in one tree will probably get you killed (with my experience on Hard and max-leveling all levels to 100.)

This one seems to be the most realistic because you get better at what you're actually doing. Systems based on experience make no sense at all. Bash some monsters with a huge hammer and get better at solving problems through diplomacy. The downside for The Elder Scrolls-like system is that it is easily exploitable. Just see how easy it is to get smithing at 100% in Skyrim.

You may also consider system that relies on trainers. This was used in Gothic games and to some extent in Might&Magic 6-9. When you level up you gain arbitrary skill points that can be forged into actual skills by meeting up with a trainer dude and paying him cash to train you.

somebody trained in diplomacy may learn a bit more from having many failed attempts that led to combat. Also, having smashed many people with a warhammer can make your requests in negotiations sound more reasonable. (Assuming that reputation precedes you, of course.) Granted the ol' xp system is most certainly not perfect when it comes to growth, but as you get older you begin to realize that many skills are interrelated in subtle ways and some things just come to you. So relatively speaking, a career soldier that has been in a lot of battles can be more skilled in diplomacy than a young diplomat who did exceptionally well in school.

Spottswoode wrote: somebody trained in diplomacy may learn a bit more from having many failed attempts that led to combat. Also, having smashed many people with a warhammer can make your requests in negotiations sound more reasonable. (Assuming that reputation precedes you, of course.) Granted the ol' xp system is most certainly not perfect when it comes to growth, but as you get older you begin to realize that many skills are interrelated in subtle ways and some things just come to you. So relatively speaking, a career soldier that has been in a lot of battles can be more skilled in diplomacy than a young diplomat who did exceptionally well in school.

I'd say this is a stretch.

Probably, but let's also remember that pc's (player characters) are not your average dude in-universe most of the time. Your pc's are not the local wizard at the pub, they are grand master wizards in the making. In the Eberron setting, (DND and DDO) all of the characters are heroes. If you didn't have more skills and better skills than the average loser, you couldn't slay the dragon and save the princess. You'd be stuck in the tavern drinking mead talking about that time you took an arrow to the knee.

Items are best. Because you can make it harder by not using them.