These Forums Make Me Feel Stupid

[W1D3A55]

Bumped because of new links to wads and their descriptions.

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On another note I would suggest you map for some small projects. I've been mapping for a while but am still quite a novice at it I haven't got the quality/time to create hugely impressive wads in there own right but I've made a map for the light-maze project and it has helped improved my mapping. also I'm making a ctf and deathmatch map for different projects in this forum, you should give it a try.
Also everyone has different opinions of whats a good map, for instance, I really like fragport when a lot of people would say it's dull and repetitive. So just stick with it, I always try and play every wad released on these forums just I can't always (nor seem able) to give criticism.

I joined a Zand DM map pack collaboration a week ago that I may just get out of. I tend to make very linear maps, unlike DM maps. Nearly half of my small projects tend to be sloppy and garbage anyways.

[Hardbash]

Atleast you KNOW how to map. That also requires scripting and stuff, right? I won't be able to do that for ages

[porcelain echo]

I pm'd you! Please post links.I forgot to say thanks.Again,best of luck!

[W1D3A55]

I pm'd you! Please post links.I forgot to say thanks.Again,best of luck!

Never got the PM, but you're welcome.

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Atleast you KNOW how to map. That also requires scripting and stuff, right? I won't be able to do that for ages

No offense, but that post was facepalm worthy. There's something called Doom Builder 2 for a reason.

[porcelain echo]

Sorry you didn't get the pm.What I basically said was I liked your wads,and that you show some promise.
Please post some links!These are fair people in this forum.See what they think,too.They are fair and honest and will give better opinions than mine.I'm not a mapper,but I have been playing Doom for at least 10 years.Good luck!

[Qent]

Atleast you KNOW how to map. That also requires scripting and stuff, right? I won't be able to do that for ages

No offense, but that post was facepalm worthy. There's something called Doom Builder 2 for a reason.

That looked to me like it was meant as a compliment, and if you're going to go around making other people feel stupid here, then you probably shouldn't be complaining. Furthermore, if he was talking about your invasion map, then it does indeed require scripting unless it's incredibly simple.

On a more practical level, having a positive attitude will tremendously help the reception of your mod.

[Medicris]

I'd like to learn how to map, but seriously, it's so painfully boring and time-consuming to learn I have to applaud you for even getting past that.

Like others have said, the quality of your work will only go up as you continue mapping. Everyone starts somewhere; even the legendary mappers were where you are at some point.

[Llewellyn]

No offense, but that post was facepalm worthy. There's something called Doom Builder 2 for a reason.

You have no idea how many times I've been asked "how do I make a door" since I learned how to map.
Like, at least 50 times.

[Catastrophe]

Doors? Seek Ammar immediately.

[Eonfge]

Dear W1D3A55,

I played through your map Castle from Castle.WAD and I would like to give you feedback on that. I hope you appreciate it as it is, and I hope you find it constructive and helpful.

I’m a junior mapper myself for a commercial studio (non-FPS) and there are many basic things I can help you with.

Geometry

The geometry of your level is too large for its purpose. Massive rows of column, very high ledges with nothing of value in it. For comparison, take a look at some Chillax maps. You might object to the gameplay (as I do), but those maps are roughly on the same scale but come with a lot of punch too it. Your map lacks that, giving the player an eerie long look at all the repeating textures and otherwise bare-bone architecture.

This is a 1994 error: Sense of scale. You have too many identical walls, straight and linear shapes. It takes some time to get the right size and shape of maps, especially in 3 Dimensions because it’s very easy to make something to tall or to large. It also explains why many modern games are more 2D oriented… because making spiralling towers of Babel is hard. Very hard.

Combat

There are many theories about how to make games, how not to, how to differently and even theories about theories. Those are generally boring and take too long to explain. So I’ll settle for one that I find most important: FLOW One look at Mihaly Csikszentmihalyis graph from time to time helps. You should get the challenges you present in a logical order of easy to hard, without any specific challenge being much easier or harder than any other challenge.

The best part of the map is for sure the CyberDreams-like segment where you have to dodge the rockets and hit the switches. It’s not a great part though. As a player starts to master the challenge, it’s difficulty naturally lowers and it quickly becomes a boring task. Some people like their maps grindy (see Chillax) but that too takes a lot of tweaking.

The rest of the combat is ‘just there’. The player seriously overpowers everything he encounters and doesn’t really have to push himself. I played it on UV and the last 5 minutes is an exercise in SR50. This could be chill. Sometimes it’s nice to play an easier level for the fun of it. The trick comes from making sure that every level has its own mini-difficulty curve to prevent the player from nodding off.

Level layout also matters in this. Make sure that danger is always close, that the player can quickly navigate from one door and combat area to another. A map like Nuclear Horror from Plutonia 2 does so amazingly well. It’s a hard map; it’s a confusing and glorifying mess. It rewords exploration, but it also keeps you on your toes. I don’t want to say that every map should be like it, but it’s something that I personally find excellent design.

Aesthetics

Because the size is off, every decoration looks off. Combining that with a few very linear rock tunnels, the map isn’t a beauty. The centre stage is also rather weird. It has the blue key somewhere in a corner, it has a large scaffolding without any matching aesthetics and it has 6 massive teleporters. If you make the map one third of what it is now, like an old castle with on the outside stone and at the inside wooden buildings (which take keys to enter), it would look a lot more natural. It would also fix the problems of people trying to jump on the teleporters from other directions.

The first room is something special, something horrible. It serves no purpose other than to devaluate your own creation. Make it an interesting place to be, with loot, narrative or scenery, or skip it. These users are well accustomed to starting in a surrounded position. Stronghold does this quite nicely; its HUB level actually matters.

Aesthetics are tricky, and it’s often best to try and match it with the setting and gameplay of the map. It also comes down a little too personal preference. In the end, mapping is also something personal.

Execution

I’m not a Doom mapper. I know how everything works as I also made my own private project in it and I play around a lot with it, but I’ve never cared to publish anything from it, as I thought of it as personal practice.

Things I can tell you, is that spawning 100+ Arachnotron projectiles is a framerate killer. I lagged horribly in OpenGL. On a CryEngine 3 work station. Consider using a collapsing cave, lasers or good old lava.

It’s also not nice to block the players passage with impassable, but invisible walls. Such things should only be done to prevent bugs, not to prevent players from jumping 10 stories down. Use a fence for that or something more natural. It’s very counter-intuitive to use invisible walls. In a game as free roaming and arcade as this, it’s weird that you can’t jump a distance that would be just fine in Vanilla Doom 2.

Also, if you get a key, you should not go to a panel to open another panel to open a door. Keys work on marked doors just fine. The swimming secret is not much of a secret (any doom player will jump into a well out of habit of finding armour or a backpack) but it’s also a nice spot to drown because it’s quite deep. There were also some weird bugs in the CyberDreams pit.

Conclusion

I would scrap the map and start again, just building a single castle with houses and making sure that everything connects to each other and flows well. Start simple. Don’t use anything fancy like ACS or fancy slopes and lighting. Keep in mind that in Zandronum, graphics are no longer a selling point.

There are many things you can learn and improve on. There are many things that I too can improve on. I told you how I look at your map, pointing at the most obvious issues and trying to explain why. I’m not omniscient so I encourage you to study as many maps and designs from as many games as possible.

Good luck, and let me know once you’ve made a new map.

Eonfge