Major Best Ever moderation change

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Lollipop
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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#161

Post by Lollipop » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:18 pm

Wait, Dynamo you will tell us all with a straight face that you didn't mention Leonard that way, by implying that you can say anything to and about him you want to, that you didn't know what it would cause? You literally have just replaced one event of drama with another.

Also, the deal with Scroton's proporal just screams segregation to me. It doesn't solve problems, it makes them.
@Scroton: Clans are just groupings of people who swing well together and play together, so when you hear drama stories with clans grouped into it then it is simply because there is a share of the clans in this community that contains a relatively high percentage of people with an interest in drama topics. Doom Daddies isn't a part of all this, neither is SOT for that matter as far as I can tell.

I know the solution to getting rid of drama:
Don't stir it up in the first place, and ignore it when it happens.

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John Zombie
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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#162

Post by John Zombie » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:22 pm

Leonard wrote:
Dynamo wrote:I never did any of what you are accusing me to do
Dynamo wrote:As you can see, between my posts and yours, it is yours which deserve to be trashed. I pray for your utmost quick departure from these forums. Have a nice day.
Sure.
Dynamo wrote:I never supported flamewars. I also as I said distance myself from any statements like the earlier one
Yeah, sure.
Dynamo wrote:I would advise you to end your unhealthy obsession with me
You brought this up yourself.

Anyways in case you wish to reply again:
Dynamo wrote:Nobody is interested in your crusades for justice on the forums.
I don't understand why you keep referencing that post Dynamo made, given the circumstances and given what you said to him it was reasonably civil. If you were being thick, he certainly could not have described you by calling you Einstein. From what I can see earlier you were only referenced because a specific incident was quoted, you were not otherwise insulted or attacked. Maybe next time don't act like an asshole and you won't get described as one.

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Dynamo
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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#163

Post by Dynamo » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:27 pm

Lollipop wrote:Wait, Dynamo you will tell us all with a straight face that you didn't mention Leonard that way, by implying that you can say anything to and about him you want to, that you didn't know what it would cause? You literally have just replaced one event of drama with another.
I referenced a specific incident and type of conduct that Leonard has done in the past, for which he has never truly apologized either and for which he was banned for. I only mentioned him for this reason, I did not insult or provoke him in any way in that post. If he doesn't want to be mentioned in such things then he shouldn't have done what he had done in the first place, or at least should have apologized properly for it, something he never had the intention of doing. My post is very clear and transparent about that. Anything else is all in your head.

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#164

Post by scroton » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:36 pm

ZZYZX wrote:It does. You want to group the people you don't like and perform an one-sided zoo-like separation so they keep producing content but don't have any rights in most of the forums. This is simultaneously nazi and slavery.
I'm beginning to think this gross misrepresentation of my proposal is intentional. I'm not going to continue arguing with you if you refuse to be reasonable.
ZZYZX wrote:I'd say you should get banned for such ideas ^_^
Especially given that it's a direct offense towards me as a clan leader, and at least 1/3 of this community as well.
Feel free to report any of my posts you feel warrant moderator action.
HTG wrote: Limiting those in a clan to a "clan only" part of the website restricts those who also map and contribute elsewhere in zandronum. So because i enjoy playing with a group of people i can't comment on certain projects by other users? nor can i comment on issues that affects zandronum? Great idea buddy.
As Konda helpfully pointed out (though not with the words I would have used), my proposal includes a provision for passes which would address all the concerns you have raised.

Also, to be clear, it is not the playing with friends that is the issue, but specifically the joining of a clan (regardless of reason.)
HTG wrote: Second, banning every member from a clan from the main irc channel? aka a public channel? gee that's great thinking, especially when most of the talk there is from gustavo (who you share a few similarities with!)
Perhaps a second IRC server should be created, to allow for a #clanzandronum channel?

I do not know who gustavo is.
Echo wrote:Then stop pontificating who/what/why anything clanstuff should be/do.
My proposal only covers general forum guidelines, what you (and other clan members) do in the clan sub forums is entirely up to clan members and the clan moderation team. You will likely end up with greater freedom in the clan subforums as it is likely that many of the typical clan behaviors that would result in a ban currently would be permitted in the clan sub forums.

My proposal is designed to better the user experience for all forum members, and in fact would be in the best interest of clan members.
IdeIdoom wrote: Which is why I said "were". You don't even know the past of this port. Even in your proposal, you said people who are or were in a clan at one point.
Perhaps the criteria for being considered a clan member were too strict. I think everyone can agree that a minimum of 3 years of not being in a clan is more reasonable? In outside cases there are still passes.
IdeIdoom wrote: If someone joins a clan just to shittalk on the forums then that guy will probably get kicked right away from the clan.
I would be inclined to agree with you, but given my observations and the fact that one cannot be sure of the intent of another except as far as their actions covey, I must disagree with you. I believe the scenario you have outlined which you feel is unlikely is in fact a common occurrence.
IdeIdoom wrote: You're not saying it, you are presenting them indirectly by separating them as much as possible from the normal community (even people who are pretty talented modders) just because they joined a clan or are in a clan. Biasbiasbiasbias...
As previously stated, the proposed passes would allow for clan members to post in the non clan forums. So while I respect and understand your concerns, I believe they are baseless.
Echo wrote:Or rename to Scrotum. Then it'll be a good laugh.
John Zombie wrote:rofl, this guy looks like the result of an experiment in artificial stupidity by combining Luke's and fylistyn's autism levels into a single individual. Get outta here
See, this kind of (quite frankly) unproductive posting is the reason my proposal is needed.

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#165

Post by Catastrophe » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:49 pm

Perhaps a second IRC server should be created, to allow for a #clanzandronum channel?
Were you traumatized by clans or something? These are some pretty ridiculous ideas. Though I think I'll just pass you off as a generic troll. 2/10 for managing to get me to reply.

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#166

Post by Echo » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:51 pm

scroton wrote: See, this kind of (quite frankly) unproductive posting is the reason my proposal is needed.
No it isn't. You came here shooting your mouth off about stuff you admitted to knowing next to diddly-dick about, and you're getting the replies you deserve for it.

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#167

Post by HTG » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:04 pm

scroton wrote:Even more dumb shit
Ok you are obviously trolling, what you suggest is pretty much a "prison" section of the forums, where certain people are hounded and sometimes (if they're lucky!!) given a get out of jail card?

You know, you also remind me of a certain player named "dart" :O

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#168

Post by IdeIdoom » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:09 pm

scroton wrote:
IdeIdoom wrote: Which is why I said "were". You don't even know the past of this port. Even in your proposal, you said people who are or were in a clan at one point.
Perhaps the criteria for being considered a clan member were too strict. I think everyone can agree that a minimum of 3 years of not being in a clan is more reasonable? In outside cases there are still passes.
Ummm, again. What are these passes? A pass for freedom of speech? MMkay.
scroton wrote:
IdeIdoom wrote: If someone joins a clan just to shittalk on the forums then that guy will probably get kicked right away from the clan.
I would be inclined to agree with you, but given my observations and the fact that one cannot be sure of the intent of another except as far as their actions covey, I must disagree with you. I believe the scenario you have outlined which you feel is unlikely is in fact a common occurrence.
I only see 3 or maybe 4 people who constantly post vulgarly on the forums who are from a clan. Hell, we should make BE only for clans in that case because the host is a clan member just to despise you.
scroton wrote:
IdeIdoom wrote: You're not saying it, you are presenting them indirectly by separating them as much as possible from the normal community (even people who are pretty talented modders) just because they joined a clan or are in a clan. Biasbiasbiasbias...
As previously stated, the proposed passes would allow for clan members to post in the non clan forums. So while I respect and understand your concerns, I believe they are baseless.
As baseless as your knowledge on clans, in that case.
scroton wrote:
Echo wrote:Or rename to Scrotum. Then it'll be a good laugh.
John Zombie wrote:rofl, this guy looks like the result of an experiment in artificial stupidity by combining Luke's and fylistyn's autism levels into a single individual. Get outta here
See, this kind of (quite frankly) unproductive posting is the reason my proposal is needed.
It's the one you asked for. You come here, knowing nothing about clans, blaming that clans should be refrained from posting widely because "FUCK YOU, YOU ARE IN A CLAN" only because you see drama and immediately thought to yourself "Hey, it must be the clans that cause this shit, let's punish all the people, even the majority who aren't even involved in this drama, because you are in a clan".

What kind of backwards logic is that?
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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#169

Post by Ænima » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:16 pm

scroton wrote: Has there even been someone that has been banned that wasn't in a clan? Ever?
Ahem. I've been banned/suspended from the forums at least 5 times and masterbanned from the game twice during the 10 years I've been in this community, and I've never been in a clan unless you count =RaVeN=, which I don't because it was basically just a fraternity of modders and furries. We only scrimmed maybe 5 times that I remember, and that was in the earliest years of the clan. The last time I wore the tag was probably 2008.

scroton wrote: This does bring up a good point, however, as it exposes a flaw in my proposal; there do exist a small number of individuals (for instance, Ænima) who, despite showing exceedingly poor judgement in joining a clan, also produce worthwhile content separate from the clan they are in.
WTF? Refer to my first response. How have I demonstrated "exceedingly poor judgement in joining a clan" when the first and last time I joined one was 2006? I did have a lot of fun in that clan, btw. Those were the days of BD, HAX, and SNS6, and the members of those clans were all pretty much friends with each other from what I remember.


A tl;dr summary of Scroton's posts:
Scroton Trump wrote: When clans send their people over the border into the Zandronum forums, they're not sending their best. They're bringing drama, they're bringing hacks, they're starting flame wars. We need to build a wall.
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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#170

Post by scroton » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:24 pm

Catastrophe wrote: Were you traumatized by clans or something?
I have no personal bias or past history with any clan. I am making these proposals because I wish to better the Zandronum community, and it is my heartfelt belief that my proposal will accomplish that.
Catastrophe wrote: These are some pretty ridiculous ideas.
While I understand my proposal might seem extreme to some at first, it would improve user experience for all forum members and actually give clan members greater freedom than they currently exercise.
Echo wrote:You came here shooting your mouth off about stuff you admitted to knowing next to diddly-dick about
Knowing the inner workings of every zandronum clan isn't necessary for identifying problems and proposing solutions.
Echo wrote:and you're getting the replies you deserve for it.
This clan endemic mentality illustrates perfectly why my proposals will improve the Zandronum user experience.

I have come here seeking to offer and refine solutions for the issues facing the Zandronum community. Naturally, argumentation is a necessary and fundamental component of that refinement process, and I therefore welcome all argumentation, however brisk. But I approach all argumentation as an impersonal group effort to, via advancing and countering of positions, arrive together at the best solution.

The idea of posts deserving hostile replies because they advance a position that is not your own is ludicrous and really has no place in productive conversation. What kind of discussion can be had when half those involved are approaching it honestly and impersonally and the other half are harboring such a toxic mentality?

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#171

Post by Galactus » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:27 pm

scroton wrote:Dumb
We need to build a wall, keep them filthy clanners out of zandronum #Makezandronumgreatagain

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#172

Post by ZZYZX » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:33 pm

scroton wrote:While I understand my proposal might seem extreme to some at first, it would improve user experience for all forum members and actually give clan members greater freedom than they currently exercise.
Are you sure that others want such freedom? Ingame, the most generic argument (including non-competitive stuff) is "shut up, you're bad at this game, you can't say anything good". Here, the rules forbid that.
You want to have it in half of the forums and call it freedom? #freekillstrike

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#173

Post by Konda » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:36 pm

ZZYZX wrote:
scroton wrote:While I understand my proposal might seem extreme to some at first, it would improve user experience for all forum members and actually give clan members greater freedom than they currently exercise.
Are you sure that others want such freedom? Ingame, the most generic argument is "shut up, you're bad at this game, you can't say anything good". You want to have that in half of the forums and call it freedom?
Technically that would be up for the "clan mods" to decide as they see fit, according to his master plan. Kind of something less strict than the current rules but still regulated to a certain degree, depending on what the clan mods agree on. So yea, if they want to harbor such mentality, let 'em do it, but the rest of the community won't have any of that. The clan jews would be able to have (regulated) drama freely while the aryans would enjoy their peaceful forums

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#174

Post by scroton » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:07 pm

HTG wrote:what you suggest is pretty much a "prison" section of the forums, where certain people are hounded and sometimes (if they're lucky!!) given a get out of jail card?
Comparing the clan sub forums in my proposal to a prison is simply not accurate.

Non clan members posting in the clan sub forums would be subject to moderator action from the Clan Moderation Team.

As outlined in a previous post, clan members could also leave the clan they are in, and if they do not join another clan for a 3 year period, post on the non clan sub forum without the need for a pass or per-post moderator approval.
HTG wrote:You know, you also remind me of a certain player named "dart" :O
I don't know who that is.
IdeIdoom wrote: Ummm, again. What are these passes? A pass for freedom of speech?
Freedom of speech does not apply to private websites. Putting my proposals into place is well within the right of the site owner.

The passes facilitate clan members capable of constructive contribution to the community to constructively contribute to the community.
IdeIdoom wrote: I only see 3 or maybe 4 people who constantly post vulgarly on the forums who are from a clan.
I respect your beliefs but I do not believe your observations are congruent with reality.
IdeIdoom wrote: Hell, we should make BE only for clans in that case because the host is a clan member just to despise you.
As demonstrated in this thread, Jenova would be well within his right to do so. If that were his decision, I would respect it.
IdeIdoom wrote: It's the one you asked for. You come here, knowing nothing about clans, blaming that clans should be refrained from posting widely because "FUCK YOU, YOU ARE IN A CLAN" only because you see drama and immediately thought to yourself "Hey, it must be the clans that cause this shit, let's punish all the people, even the majority who aren't even involved in this drama, because you are in a clan".
This is that same toxic mentality I pointed out earlier. This is unproductive.
Ænima wrote:Ahem. I've been banned/suspended from the forums at least 5 times and masterbanned from the game twice during the 10 years I've been in this community, and I've never been in a clan unless you count =RaVeN=, which I don't because it was basically just a fraternity of modders and furries. We only scrimmed maybe 5 times that I remember, and that was in the earliest years of the clan. The last time I wore the tag was probably 2008.
As per my original proposal, you fit into the criteria of being counted as a clan member. This information only strengthens my position.
Ænima wrote:WTF? Refer to my first response. How have I demonstrated "exceedingly poor judgement in joining a clan" when the first and last time I joined one was 2006? I did have a lot of fun in that clan, btw. Those were the days of BD, HAX, and SNS6, and the members of those clans were all pretty much friends with each other from what I remember.
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding your joining a clan, or how long ago you joined, it still illustrates a lack of judgement.

Note that under the revised proposal, since you have not been in a clan for a period spanning three years or more, you would no longer be considered a clan member.
Ænima wrote:A tl;dr summary of Scroton's posts:
Scroton Trump wrote: When clans send their people over the border into the Zandronum forums, they're not sending their best. They're bringing drama, they're bringing hacks, they're starting flame wars. We need to build a wall.
The idea of building a physical wall to solve issues on an internet forum is laughable at best. Please be serious if you're going to participate in this conversation.
Konda wrote:Technically that would be up for the "clan mods" to decide as they see fit, according to his master plan. Kind of something less strict than the current rules but still regulated to a certain degree, depending on what the clan mods agree on. So yea, if they want to harbor such mentality, let 'em do it, but the rest of the community won't have any of that. The clan jews would be able to have (regulated) drama freely while the aryans would enjoy their peaceful forums
While these aren't the exact words I would have used, you have summarized this part of my proposal beautifully. Thank you, Konda.

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#175

Post by Marcaek » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:11 pm

Why are you guys biting on this?

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#176

Post by mifu » Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:12 pm

Alright ya all need to calm the fuck down, and stop posting in this thread for a few.

Sorry i did not post quick enough. Work made sure I wouldn't be able to check this out. Anyways Staff and I have been chatting about this for a long time during the course of this.

Lets state the facts first before I get into it.

First mobius was banned for a long time by previous administration. As pointed out by Razgriz a few pages ago his ban was brought up. We decided the right thing to do would to give him a clean slate as he has been banned for a while. Before people mention that was a stupid move, we knew full well some people here wont like it but unfortunately mobius had not really had it fair by our previous administration and we felt it was the right thing to do in order to stabilize the relationship between community and staff. Hes been fine on the forums ever since that ban was lifted. We do acknowledge that an incident occurred when AVC decided to start on Razgriz on IRC. While we do agree it could of been handled better note that mobius did get banned from #zandronum and punishment was served.

The kicker is Jenova disagreed with the punishment advising mobius has not changed and it should of been a perm. I was not in #staff at the time but I was advised it resulted Jenova being removed from #staff also. I was also advised drama has ensued in #A3 etc then this thread happened. That's a tl;dr version of it.

Essentially what Jenova wants is for me to ban mobius, forever under the pretext that he has not changed one bit because of this one incident.

The staff position is we know that the core of the issue is on how we handle punishments so we will be working on revamping rules, punishments, ban times etc in the next few days. As for perma banning mobius *RIGHT NOW* we are not going to. We simply do not see why his recent incident warrants it as he is already been punished. I did mention next time he plays up and if any other repeat offenders do, its a perma ban. Thats our stance and it wont change. Note perma bans is something the community wanted us to get rid of a while back and we did, now its back.

Now for this thread. It went places, that it should of not went to. Almost all of you are archviles because what we see here is past and bad blood. Almost like I am in a time warp. This thread is not an example to get the staff to change or to do something you want. This thread is an example of a huge shit fest that never ever needed to occur. While both parties brought up good points, this thread is nothing more then a "he said she said" bullshit argument. Also with the fact that BE seems like it was used a bit of a leverage. Jenova probably could of handled this better instead of nuking this cluster but in the end, its up to him. I am not going to punish Jen or mobius for this thread but we do not want to see another thread or stunt pulled like this ever again. Anymore shit like this will get shut down alot faster and I promise that. If you have a legit concern post a topic by all means, but dont let this thread be an example. Calling staff retards or flaming them does not help either.

During this course of time, we also identified that we could use more staff that hail from the competitive scene as there are concerns of bias and hardly anyone well versed in the competitive scene thats in staff currently. If we can get one from every group/clan it should hopefully make things slightly equal when it comes to decision making. As a decision from me, I am also going to also appoint more people to have essentially admin status also in case I am not around when decisions need to be made. I feel this is part of the problem also.

Now time to address some stupid shit thats made this whole thread worse.
scroton wrote:I believe I have a solution for the issues the Zandronum community faces:

1) Create separate but equal copies of all sub forums for general clan members--"Clan Projects", "Clan Editing", "Clan General" and so forth.

2) Make it so that all forum members that are currently in clans or have been in clans at any point in the past are only able to post in these clan sub forums. Make exceptions for bug reports and other such things which assist development of Zandronum. For the sake of organizing events, allow non-clan forum members to post in the clan sub forums.

3) Remove any and all forum Admins and Moderators which are in a clan or have been in a clan at any point in the past from their positions and put them in charge of moderating the clan sub forums. Allow them autonomy in appointing new clan moderators from clan forum members.

4) G-line all IRC users that are in a clan or have been in a clan at any point in the past from the main Zandronum IRC channels, such as #zandronum. Leave other IRC channels as-is.

I believe these changes will improve user experience for the entire zandronum community as it will mean that non clan members will be able to post about zandronum and zandronum projects, and clan members will be free to post about clans and clan feuds without interruption from moderation.

Thank you for your time.
Stop trolling, your making this thread even shittier.

Also, people who are fighting each other or are just posting for the sake of adding more fuel to the fire (Especially you JZ since you seem like you need to do exactly this every time) need to stop posting for a few and look at what the hell is wrong with this thread.

As for BE that appears to be gone, not sure what Jenova is up to now but he is welcome to return if he wants. It is up to him of course.

Anyways, time to stop posting in this thread now. It's gone to shit. We will archive this thread rather then trashing it though, as a reminder to all what has been done based on staff decisions so we can point to it if someone wants us to change again. Also archiving it as a reminder that this thread is not an example of how shit should go around here.

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Re: Major Best Ever moderation change

#177

Post by TerminusEst13 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:07 pm

Shut the fuck up, Scroton.

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