Zandronum

scroton wrote:My proposal does not seek to punish clan members

It does. You want to group the people you don't like and perform an one-sided zoo-like separation so they keep producing content but don't have any rights in most of the forums. This is simultaneously nazi and slavery.
I'd say you should get banned for such ideas ^_^
Especially given that it's a direct offense towards me as a clan leader, and at least 1/3 of this community as well.

scroton wrote:I have seldom paid much attention to clans. My posts in this thread are the first posts I have made which concern clans in any capacity.

Given the absurdity of it all, let us hope they're also the last.

scroton wrote:Dumb shit

At first i thought you were trolling, as it your post seemed too absurd to be true, but now i know you're somehow being serious let me state what is wrong with your """proposal"""

Limiting those in a clan to a "clan only" part of the website restricts those who also map and contribute elsewhere in zandronum. So because i enjoy playing with a group of people i can't comment on certain projects by other users? nor can i comment on issues that affects zandronum? Great idea buddy.

Second, banning every member from a clan from the main irc channel? aka a public channel? gee that's great thinking, especially when most of the talk there is from gustavo (who you share a few similarities with!)

I'll probably look like an idiot later on if you do turn out to be a troll, which i still pray to god you are

HTG wrote:

scroton wrote:Dumb shit

At first i thought you were trolling, as it your post seemed too absurd to be true, but now i know you're somehow being serious let me state what is wrong with your """proposal"""

Limiting those in a clan to a "clan only" part of the website restricts those who also map and contribute elsewhere in zandronum. So because i enjoy playing with a group of people i can't comment on certain projects by other users? nor can i comment on issues that affects zandronum? Great idea buddy.

Second, banning every member from a clan from the main irc channel? aka a public channel? gee that's great thinking, especially when most of the talk there is from gustavo (who you share a few similarities with!)

I'll probably look like an idiot later on if you do turn out to be a troll, which i still pray to god you are

Don't worry. He also mentioned something about people with good behavior getting special "pass" cards that let them post outside the concentration camp.

Dynamo wrote:Also, "nothing would be lost" is not, in my view, something at all appropriate to say unless you're called Leonard.

It's ok, you can stop reminding us in every single one of your posts and acting like anyone cares, I think we all understood here the kind of hypocrite that you are.
"appropriate to say"
Wait, weren't you the one who, 1 month ago, was on the side of people who think it's ok to insult everyone on the forum?
Weren't you defending Decay for basically calling everyone a retard?
So you went out of your way just to support having a forum where everyone can be insulted with impunity AND then you go and whine around through PMs about how you're the winner and how your posts are "worthy" and when someone finally responds to you in the aggressive way that you had supported you start acting like suddenly you got offended by it somehow?
So it's fine for all of your little buddies to insult everyone as they please but when someone else does it to you it's wrong?
I think you should just stop being the immense hypocrite that you are and stop shoving your ego in people's face.

scroton wrote:

IdeIdoom wrote: I will just point out that most of the moderation team (including the developers) are/were in a clan.

I was aware of this regarding the moderation team. My proposal includes placing these individuals into the clan moderation team, where they will be in charge of moderating the clan subforums.

A quick check of the development user group, if I'm reading it correctly, reveals that almost none of the developers are in a clan. Neither Torr Samaho or Blzut3 appear to be in clans.

Which is why I said "were". You don't even know the past of this port. Even in your proposal, you said people who are or were in a clan at one point.

scroton wrote:

IdeIdoom wrote: And exceedingly poor judgement? Do you even know what clans are even? They aren't just for competitive play, or to make drama. Hell, you're better off joining a clan to make friends.

While there are certainly some small fraction of forum members that join clans for reasons other than feuding in the forums, you must admit such people are an extreme statistical anomaly.

Now you're 100% just trolling. If someone joins a clan just to shittalk on the forums then that guy will probably get kicked right away from the clan.

scroton wrote: Regarding the extremely poor judgement remark--I'm not saying that clan members can't be good people, or that they are all terrible drama-mongering individuals that hardly ever actually play Doom, but when I find out someone is on a clan I do usually lose a great deal of respect for the person as it is usually indicative of general poor life choices.

You're not saying it, you are presenting them indirectly by separating them as much as possible from the normal community (even people who are pretty talented modders) just because they joined a clan or are in a clan. Biasbiasbiasbias...

rofl, this guy looks like the result of an experiment in artificial stupidity by combining Luke's and fylistyn's autism levels into a single individual. Get outta here

scroton wrote: I know exceedingly little about clans, which is precisely as much as I care to.

Then stop pontificating who/what/why anything clanstuff should be/do.

Or rename to Scrotum. Then it'll be a good laugh.

Leonard wrote:It's ok, you can stop reminding us in every single one of your posts and acting like anyone cares.

You are right about that, nobody cares about you. I won't ever bother answering to your insane scribbles because I never did any of what you are accusing me of doing, I never told someone to go kill themselves (you did and only gave a half assed back handed apology for it so the only king of hypocrites here is you) and I never supported flamewars. I also as I said distance myself from any statements like the earlier one because I'm not like you. Go back playing with barbie dolls or something.

Oh and by the way, for the incident you are referencing (by twisting the reality no less), you have in fact been warned and banned. I would advise you to end your unhealthy obsession with me so maybe you avoid pulling the same shit and getting the same treatment in return again.

Dynamo wrote:I never did any of what you are accusing me to do

Dynamo wrote:As you can see, between my posts and yours, it is yours which deserve to be trashed. I pray for your utmost quick departure from these forums. Have a nice day.

Sure.

Dynamo wrote:I never supported flamewars. I also as I said distance myself from any statements like the earlier one

Yeah, sure.

Dynamo wrote:I would advise you to end your unhealthy obsession with me

You brought this up yourself.

Anyways in case you wish to reply again:

Dynamo wrote:Nobody is interested in your crusades for justice on the forums.

Wait, Dynamo you will tell us all with a straight face that you didn't mention Leonard that way, by implying that you can say anything to and about him you want to, that you didn't know what it would cause? You literally have just replaced one event of drama with another.

Also, the deal with Scroton's proporal just screams segregation to me. It doesn't solve problems, it makes them.
@Scroton: Clans are just groupings of people who swing well together and play together, so when you hear drama stories with clans grouped into it then it is simply because there is a share of the clans in this community that contains a relatively high percentage of people with an interest in drama topics. Doom Daddies isn't a part of all this, neither is SOT for that matter as far as I can tell.

I know the solution to getting rid of drama:
Don't stir it up in the first place, and ignore it when it happens.

Leonard wrote:

Dynamo wrote:I never did any of what you are accusing me to do

Dynamo wrote:As you can see, between my posts and yours, it is yours which deserve to be trashed. I pray for your utmost quick departure from these forums. Have a nice day.

Sure.

Dynamo wrote:I never supported flamewars. I also as I said distance myself from any statements like the earlier one

Yeah, sure.

Dynamo wrote:I would advise you to end your unhealthy obsession with me

You brought this up yourself.

Anyways in case you wish to reply again:

Dynamo wrote:Nobody is interested in your crusades for justice on the forums.

I don't understand why you keep referencing that post Dynamo made, given the circumstances and given what you said to him it was reasonably civil. If you were being thick, he certainly could not have described you by calling you Einstein. From what I can see earlier you were only referenced because a specific incident was quoted, you were not otherwise insulted or attacked. Maybe next time don't act like an asshole and you won't get described as one.

Lollipop wrote:Wait, Dynamo you will tell us all with a straight face that you didn't mention Leonard that way, by implying that you can say anything to and about him you want to, that you didn't know what it would cause? You literally have just replaced one event of drama with another.

I referenced a specific incident and type of conduct that Leonard has done in the past, for which he has never truly apologized either and for which he was banned for. I only mentioned him for this reason, I did not insult or provoke him in any way in that post. If he doesn't want to be mentioned in such things then he shouldn't have done what he had done in the first place, or at least should have apologized properly for it, something he never had the intention of doing. My post is very clear and transparent about that. Anything else is all in your head.

ZZYZX wrote:It does. You want to group the people you don't like and perform an one-sided zoo-like separation so they keep producing content but don't have any rights in most of the forums. This is simultaneously nazi and slavery.

I'm beginning to think this gross misrepresentation of my proposal is intentional. I'm not going to continue arguing with you if you refuse to be reasonable.

ZZYZX wrote:I'd say you should get banned for such ideas ^_^
Especially given that it's a direct offense towards me as a clan leader, and at least 1/3 of this community as well.

Feel free to report any of my posts you feel warrant moderator action.

HTG wrote: Limiting those in a clan to a "clan only" part of the website restricts those who also map and contribute elsewhere in zandronum. So because i enjoy playing with a group of people i can't comment on certain projects by other users? nor can i comment on issues that affects zandronum? Great idea buddy.

As Konda helpfully pointed out (though not with the words I would have used), my proposal includes a provision for passes which would address all the concerns you have raised.

Also, to be clear, it is not the playing with friends that is the issue, but specifically the joining of a clan (regardless of reason.)

HTG wrote: Second, banning every member from a clan from the main irc channel? aka a public channel? gee that's great thinking, especially when most of the talk there is from gustavo (who you share a few similarities with!)

Perhaps a second IRC server should be created, to allow for a #clanzandronum channel?

I do not know who gustavo is.

Echo wrote:Then stop pontificating who/what/why anything clanstuff should be/do.

My proposal only covers general forum guidelines, what you (and other clan members) do in the clan sub forums is entirely up to clan members and the clan moderation team. You will likely end up with greater freedom in the clan subforums as it is likely that many of the typical clan behaviors that would result in a ban currently would be permitted in the clan sub forums.

My proposal is designed to better the user experience for all forum members, and in fact would be in the best interest of clan members.

IdeIdoom wrote: Which is why I said "were". You don't even know the past of this port. Even in your proposal, you said people who are or were in a clan at one point.

Perhaps the criteria for being considered a clan member were too strict. I think everyone can agree that a minimum of 3 years of not being in a clan is more reasonable? In outside cases there are still passes.

IdeIdoom wrote: If someone joins a clan just to shittalk on the forums then that guy will probably get kicked right away from the clan.

I would be inclined to agree with you, but given my observations and the fact that one cannot be sure of the intent of another except as far as their actions covey, I must disagree with you. I believe the scenario you have outlined which you feel is unlikely is in fact a common occurrence.

IdeIdoom wrote: You're not saying it, you are presenting them indirectly by separating them as much as possible from the normal community (even people who are pretty talented modders) just because they joined a clan or are in a clan. Biasbiasbiasbias...

As previously stated, the proposed passes would allow for clan members to post in the non clan forums. So while I respect and understand your concerns, I believe they are baseless.

Echo wrote:Or rename to Scrotum. Then it'll be a good laugh.

John Zombie wrote:rofl, this guy looks like the result of an experiment in artificial stupidity by combining Luke's and fylistyn's autism levels into a single individual. Get outta here

See, this kind of (quite frankly) unproductive posting is the reason my proposal is needed.

Perhaps a second IRC server should be created, to allow for a #clanzandronum channel?

Were you traumatized by clans or something? These are some pretty ridiculous ideas. Though I think I'll just pass you off as a generic troll. 2/10 for managing to get me to reply.

scroton wrote: See, this kind of (quite frankly) unproductive posting is the reason my proposal is needed.

No it isn't. You came here shooting your mouth off about stuff you admitted to knowing next to diddly-dick about, and you're getting the replies you deserve for it.

scroton wrote:Even more dumb shit

Ok you are obviously trolling, what you suggest is pretty much a "prison" section of the forums, where certain people are hounded and sometimes (if they're lucky!!) given a get out of jail card?

You know, you also remind me of a certain player named "dart" :O

scroton wrote:

IdeIdoom wrote: Which is why I said "were". You don't even know the past of this port. Even in your proposal, you said people who are or were in a clan at one point.

Perhaps the criteria for being considered a clan member were too strict. I think everyone can agree that a minimum of 3 years of not being in a clan is more reasonable? In outside cases there are still passes.

Ummm, again. What are these passes? A pass for freedom of speech? MMkay.

scroton wrote:

IdeIdoom wrote: If someone joins a clan just to shittalk on the forums then that guy will probably get kicked right away from the clan.

I would be inclined to agree with you, but given my observations and the fact that one cannot be sure of the intent of another except as far as their actions covey, I must disagree with you. I believe the scenario you have outlined which you feel is unlikely is in fact a common occurrence.

I only see 3 or maybe 4 people who constantly post vulgarly on the forums who are from a clan. Hell, we should make BE only for clans in that case because the host is a clan member just to despise you.

scroton wrote:

IdeIdoom wrote: You're not saying it, you are presenting them indirectly by separating them as much as possible from the normal community (even people who are pretty talented modders) just because they joined a clan or are in a clan. Biasbiasbiasbias...

As previously stated, the proposed passes would allow for clan members to post in the non clan forums. So while I respect and understand your concerns, I believe they are baseless.

As baseless as your knowledge on clans, in that case.

scroton wrote:

Echo wrote:Or rename to Scrotum. Then it'll be a good laugh.

John Zombie wrote:rofl, this guy looks like the result of an experiment in artificial stupidity by combining Luke's and fylistyn's autism levels into a single individual. Get outta here

See, this kind of (quite frankly) unproductive posting is the reason my proposal is needed.

It's the one you asked for. You come here, knowing nothing about clans, blaming that clans should be refrained from posting widely because "FUCK YOU, YOU ARE IN A CLAN" only because you see drama and immediately thought to yourself "Hey, it must be the clans that cause this shit, let's punish all the people, even the majority who aren't even involved in this drama, because you are in a clan".

What kind of backwards logic is that?

scroton wrote: Has there even been someone that has been banned that wasn't in a clan? Ever?

Ahem. I've been banned/suspended from the forums at least 5 times and masterbanned from the game twice during the 10 years I've been in this community, and I've never been in a clan unless you count =RaVeN=, which I don't because it was basically just a fraternity of modders and furries. We only scrimmed maybe 5 times that I remember, and that was in the earliest years of the clan. The last time I wore the tag was probably 2008.

scroton wrote: This does bring up a good point, however, as it exposes a flaw in my proposal; there do exist a small number of individuals (for instance, Ænima) who, despite showing exceedingly poor judgement in joining a clan, also produce worthwhile content separate from the clan they are in.

WTF? Refer to my first response. How have I demonstrated "exceedingly poor judgement in joining a clan" when the first and last time I joined one was 2006? I did have a lot of fun in that clan, btw. Those were the days of BD, HAX, and SNS6, and the members of those clans were all pretty much friends with each other from what I remember.


A tl;dr summary of Scroton's posts:

Scroton Trump wrote: When clans send their people over the border into the Zandronum forums, they're not sending their best. They're bringing drama, they're bringing hacks, they're starting flame wars. We need to build a wall.

Catastrophe wrote: Were you traumatized by clans or something?

I have no personal bias or past history with any clan. I am making these proposals because I wish to better the Zandronum community, and it is my heartfelt belief that my proposal will accomplish that.

Catastrophe wrote: These are some pretty ridiculous ideas.

While I understand my proposal might seem extreme to some at first, it would improve user experience for all forum members and actually give clan members greater freedom than they currently exercise.

Echo wrote:You came here shooting your mouth off about stuff you admitted to knowing next to diddly-dick about

Knowing the inner workings of every zandronum clan isn't necessary for identifying problems and proposing solutions.

Echo wrote:and you're getting the replies you deserve for it.

This clan endemic mentality illustrates perfectly why my proposals will improve the Zandronum user experience.

I have come here seeking to offer and refine solutions for the issues facing the Zandronum community. Naturally, argumentation is a necessary and fundamental component of that refinement process, and I therefore welcome all argumentation, however brisk. But I approach all argumentation as an impersonal group effort to, via advancing and countering of positions, arrive together at the best solution.

The idea of posts deserving hostile replies because they advance a position that is not your own is ludicrous and really has no place in productive conversation. What kind of discussion can be had when half those involved are approaching it honestly and impersonally and the other half are harboring such a toxic mentality?