Zandronum

Hi. I'm picking up Zandronum as a development platform and hit one particularly bothersome snag - SLADE3 doesn't seem to include the SkullTag items and monsters (especially the massive array of Invasion spawn spots.) Anyone know of an updated config floating around out there for making Invasion/etc maps under SLADE? I think I see where I might be able to add it to slade's config, but I'm not sure it will pick it up without modifying the pk3 directly, and it's something like 100 items or so to add, so, much better if there's a public solution somewhere my searches just haven't found. Surprised I didn't find anything before resorting to asking, honestly. If SLADE3 vanilla Invasion mapping isn't as practical, I'd take suggestions on what other editor to use, too, though I'll note I'm unfond of DoomBuilder.

As an aside, anyone have comments on pros/cons/etc of developing maps that use skulltag content instead of vanilla? Looks like it's a free and easy way to have some more content and convenient gamemode variety, and I particularly like the health/armor maxups. Does it automatically break vanilla (g)zdoom compatability, or can the actors pk3 be used by those ports as well? I'm vaguely considering making something exotic, perhaps a Strife or Heretic Invasion map since I doubt there are a whole lot of those to compete with. Anyone interested in trying such a beastie if/once I get that far, feel free to drop me a line whenever.

http://www.[bad site]/download?file= ... actors.pk3
^all text lumps and code including DECORATE


http://www.[bad site]/download?file= ... _fixed.pk3
^all resources including sprites, sounds, and maps

Ænima wrote: http://www.[bad site]/download?file= ... actors.pk3
^all text lumps and code including DECORATE


http://www.[bad site]/download?file= ... _fixed.pk3
^all resources including sprites, sounds, and maps

Thanks for the quick reply, but I think I may have been unclear, sorry - the problem is SLADE3 doesn't show the actors in its map editor to -add- them to newly created maps. I can use the -existing- Invasion maps with Zandronum itself just fine, but I want to make my own maps for it, and while all the other things, including doom2 and zdoom's, show up, SkullTag's don't. Do I have to somehow get SLADE3 to load one or both of those pk3s for them to be addable? I wouldn't think it would be able to pull actor ID+name directly from the DECORATE source, and unless the zip support's been upgraded without mention in the changelog, I don't think it can read them due to compression type anyway. I have the version of skulltag_actors.pk3 that comes with Zandronum 1.3 itself, and a copy of the skulltag data pk3 from the downloads section on the Zandronum page. Slade's 3.1.0.1 with zero mention of relevant changes in the changelogs.

EDIT: On further tweaking, I've found it does actually create a lump category I hadn't noticed before for actors from DECORATE that it doesn't recognize otherwise - messy and far from optimal, but workable I guess. Editing sure has come a far cry in the past 10 years since the DETH days when nothing automatically read anything...

Why are you trying to map in SLADE? You need Doombuilder 2.


http://www.doombuilder.com/

Or GZDoom Builder, I prefer it more. :)

Slim wrote: Or GZDoom Builder, I prefer it more. :)

Yeah. That's actually what I meant. Honestly if you're new to the engine it might not matter though, GZDoom builder is just DB2 with more RAM usage and a 2000x better visual mode that shows models, 3D floors, and dynamic lighting. Only really matters if you intend to use that.

Ænima wrote:Why are you trying to map in SLADE? You need Doombuilder 2.

Ænima wrote:Yeah. That's actually what I meant. Honestly if you're new to the engine it might not matter though, GZDoom builder is just DB2 with more RAM usage and a 2000x better visual mode that shows models, 3D floors, and dynamic lighting. Only really matters if you intend to use that.

Slade 3 has a pretty nice map editor (especially if you're used to Deth and kin from 10 or 20 years ago like I am) built-in and incorporates a bunch of things I suspect DB2 still doesn't in terms of general resource manipulation, e.g. wide-ranging graphical imports. I've used DB1 on and off the past 5 or 10 years and honestly preferred Deth for some sorts of design work. So I strongly question whether DB2 would be substantially better compared to Slade which I'm using and generally like aside from the lack of built-in ST support. It DOES support UDMF and seemingly everything else I've noticed that I plan to use adequately so far, except for the extremely mediocre handling of ST - I'm USED to mapping completely off mental visual projection back in the old days, so if the 3D mode doesn't show 3D floors (which I'm already using in one of my testing levels), that's not even a concern to me - I rarely use the 3d view anyway, so I don't know whether it does or not.

As for new to the engine, only if you mean (g)zdoom/zandronum specifically - the core's still ID tech 1, though, and that I've been mapping for extensively for since around 1994, so 20 years now. Just mostly on the vanilla engines (Doom 2 1.9, Heretic 1.4 I think, Hexen 1.1, I've made unreleased projects for them all) using what are clearly now archaic tools - and that's why I need to modernize my toolset so I can make good use of the new port features. With all the various options out there, though, I'm still trying to figure out exactly which tools to use for my specific design process, and why.

Slim wrote:Or GZDoom Builder, I prefer it more. :)

I'd be interested in knowing why, and which supports Zandronum/SkullTag better - I assume from the name alone and a skim of the pages that it already supports GZDoom much better than vanilla DB2 does? So far, Zandronum looks like it will be my primary build target, with GZDoom secondary if I can support it without losing much.

Have either of you used Slade's map editor to contrast it?

Hey man, whatever you're comfortable with using, go ahead.

I've never used Slade's built in map editor but I can assure you there's nothing you can't do with Doom Builder 2 as far as mapping itself goes, just keep a SLADE window minimized for all the rest (just incase you need another texture or actor definition or something).

And I can assure you DB2 is the best for editing ST/Zan. GZDoom is for shiny features. I don't know what the last Doombuilder version you used was but I promise the newest DB2 build is way ahead of it.

All of us here (speak up otherwise) have been using DB2 ever since it first came out years ago and we've been doing fine. But like I said before, use what you're comfortable with.

I just stick to what I know.

GZDoom Builder does not simply improve features for GZDoom; it comes with plenty of upgrades for handling the software renderer as well, such as displaying slopes in 3D mode and UDMF texture manipulation both 3D mode and the map editor itself, plus stuff that even impacts vanilla mapping like sound propagation mode.

It's also under active development, unlike DB2. If you run into a fatal error in DB2, you're stuck with it and have to work around it. GZDB, meanwhile, probably has a fixed being worked on it unless you're the first to discover it, and even then you just have to report it first.

I'd probably say that maybe DB2 would be better for editing Skulltag, perhaps, but in the sense that you'd be using an outdated tool for an outdated engine to save memory. Though certainly Skulltag could still benefit from sector color visualization and stuff like sound propagation mode, and I'm only saying this from the assumption that Skulltag didn't get far enough to implement UDMF which might be flat-out wrong. For Zandronum, GZDB is far, faaaaar preferred*, as well stuff like slopes, sector lighting, floor and ceiling alignment / rotation, and individual offsets for upper, middle, and lower textures might seem like advanced features they're surprisingly simple when you can visualize them outside of the game and, for most of them, actually literally do all of them with a press of a button or two.

* stuff like this is strictly for DB2 vs. GZDB; I don't have any experience messing around with SLADE's map editor so it might be just as advanced while being just as simple to use, so.

You can use Skulltag ressources with GZDoom Builder, We did to do it for the INVUX project and it worked fine.
You will have to change some stuff in the .txt files for the configurations because by default GZDoom Builder ignores skulltag stuff.

Ænima wrote:I've never used Slade's built in map editor but I can assure you there's nothing you can't do with Doom Builder 2 as far as mapping itself goes, just keep a SLADE window minimized for all the rest (just incase you need another texture or actor definition or something).

I'm honestly curious if I'm going to find integration benefits like potentially Slade auto-catching resource updates where DB2, being a separate program, might not. Thanks for the input.

Slim wrote:I just stick to what I know.

I know that feeling... Slade just feels more natural to me than the DB versions I've tried in the past.

Arctangent wrote: GZDoom Builder does not simply improve features for GZDoom; it comes with plenty of upgrades for handling the software renderer as well, such as displaying slopes in 3D mode and UDMF texture manipulation both 3D mode and the map editor itself, plus stuff that even impacts vanilla mapping like sound propagation mode.

...

Thanks for the very informative post, this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I'll definitely choose GZDB over DB if I decide to give the DB family another shot. 4-6GB system RAM should be plenty to use it with Win7, right?

fr blood wrote: You can use Skulltag ressources with GZDoom Builder, We did to do it for the INVUX project and it worked fine.
You will have to change some stuff in the .txt files for the configurations because by default GZDoom Builder ignores skulltag stuff.

So pretty much whatever I do there's going to be a some up-front work and/or awkwardness to be able to use the ST resources from any up-to-date editor? Good to know, at least, if quite unfortunate. Thanks. Seems like anything beyond vanilla Zandronum/GZDoom is on a "support-yourself" basis with the editors. Oh well.

Uh, you can add skulltag_actors_1-1-1.pk3 and skulltag_data_126.pk3 to your Map's resources (at least in GZDB) and, minus a couple of errors that you can safely ignore, everything is fine.

However, there is a good reason Skulltag's stuff isn't supported by editors nowadays; they're no longer default with Zandronum. The only reason mirrors are still around is so that there's backwards compatibility with older mods. If you want something from Skulltag, it's less clumsy for the person trying out your mod to just remake whatever you need and include it with your mod.

KenFH wrote:

Ænima wrote:I've never used Slade's built in map editor but I can assure you there's nothing you can't do with Doom Builder 2 as far as mapping itself goes, just keep a SLADE window minimized for all the rest (just incase you need another texture or actor definition or something).

I'm honestly curious if I'm going to find integration benefits like potentially Slade auto-catching resource updates where DB2, being a separate program, might not. Thanks for the input.

Literally that easy. Update your resource pk3/wad in Slade (not the pk3/wad that the map itself is in, obviously, but the wad you list as a resource when you first open the map) on the fly and then press F8 to have Doombuilder reload those resources.

KenFH wrote:

Slim wrote:I just stick to what I know.

I know that feeling... Slade just feels more natural to me than the DB versions I've tried in the past.

So try an up-to-date version?

KenFH wrote:

fr blood wrote: You can use Skulltag ressources with GZDoom Builder, We did to do it for the INVUX project and it worked fine.
You will have to change some stuff in the .txt files for the configurations because by default GZDoom Builder ignores skulltag stuff.

So pretty much whatever I do there's going to be a some up-front work and/or awkwardness to be able to use the ST resources from any up-to-date editor? Good to know, at least, if quite unfortunate. Thanks. Seems like anything beyond vanilla Zandronum/GZDoom is on a "support-yourself" basis with the editors. Oh well.

This extra step is pretty much required to comfortably map for a modern port like Zandronum. Slade was designed to have everything, but it wasn't necessarily designed to be the Doom mapping utility. Doom Builder is.

How hard is it to learn how to use a new tool? If you're not willing to at least give the DB family a shot then I really don't know what to say other than that you're stuck with Slade. :/