10 Teams discussion

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10 Teams discussion

#1

Post by Zakken » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 pm

There are going to be 14 free agents after the draft. Really wish we went for 10 teams instead. :c
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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#2

Post by Dragon » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:32 am

Zakken wrote:There are going to be 14 free agents after the draft. Really wish we went for 10 teams instead. :c
I doubt 10 teams would work out.. We'll have to see it from the bright side that if someone drops or you just want to trade, you'll have a lot to choose from.

And I'd rather have 8 relatively equal teams than 4 stacked, 3 mediocre and 3 bottom tier teams. It definitely makes for a more interesting season to have 8 strong.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#3

Post by Ten » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:30 pm

Zakken wrote:There are going to be 14 free agents after the draft. Really wish we went for 10 teams instead. :c
If the SICL has taught us anything, 10 teams would probably not go so smoothly. 8 teams is a good start, if things are reasonably successful then perhaps 10 teams could be a possibility in future seasons.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#4

Post by Zakken » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:17 pm

Dragon wrote:I doubt 10 teams would work out.. We'll have to see it from the bright side that if someone drops or you just want to trade, you'll have a lot to choose from.
With 10 teams, you'll still have a decent 6 free agents to work with, although with this many people, the odds of having reliable players among those 6 drops. I can see why you'd prefer not to do what looks like a gamble, but...
Dragon wrote:And I'd rather have 8 relatively equal teams than 4 stacked, 3 mediocre and 3 bottom tier teams. It definitely makes for a more interesting season to have 8 strong.
We're seeing the first time a Zandronum league gets enough players to form 8 teams, and you're already talking about prioritising having strong teams over letting more people play? That kind of mentality will just mess up the scene again. Besides, it's not player numbers that hurt team parity; captains' skill and draft knowledge do (in the auction draft, at least). You can have a 6-team season and still have one or two bad teams (and conversely, one or two really stacked teams) because their captains either aren't as good as the others, their draft went really badly, or both. There's plenty of draft data in the WDL forums to back this up.
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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#5

Post by Razgriz » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:13 pm

Zakken wrote: We're seeing the first time a Zandronum league gets enough players to form 8 teams, and you're already talking about prioritising having strong teams over letting more people play? That kind of mentality will just mess up the scene again. Besides, it's not player numbers that hurt team parity; captains' skill and draft knowledge do (in the auction draft, at least). You can have a 6-team season and still have one or two bad teams (and conversely, one or two really stacked teams) because their captains either aren't as good as the others, their draft went really badly, or both. There's plenty of draft data in the WDL forums to back this up.
I don't know about you but I came for a good season, and yes strong teams facing off is more interesting than seeing some lop sided games. I would like more people to play but I also would like more people to get better too. Simply signing up but never showing any incentive to improve or be active doesn't make me want to draft you, and I wouldn't captain in a league where I'd be forced to pick up someone who falls under this category. The quality of the player pool determines everything, and he has enough for a really good season finally. I'm actually looking forward to some good games when this takes off.

I also would say the spike in activity is due to the season, Dragon opening up the league, and the fact that scrim and priv games are so empty now a days that people are thirsty for competition.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#6

Post by HTG » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:19 pm

I guess i can see both points, why we should and should not go for 10 teams. Thing is, this is our first season with 8 captains, and finding 8 captains was already a task. I think if we get the same amount of signups next season, we could possibly do 10, but this season it's a bit too sudden.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#7

Post by Samurai » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:58 pm

I'm onside the the '8 teams is enough' viewpoint for now. Like HTG said, if this season is billed up to be as good as we hope it will be, maybe next season look at having 10 teams.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#8

Post by Galactus » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:10 pm

As long as I get drafted 8 teams are fine

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#9

Post by Zakken » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:15 am

Razgriz wrote:I don't know about you but I came for a good season, and yes strong teams facing off is more interesting than seeing some lop sided games.
Reread the latter half of my post. While less teams does imply more concentrated teams in terms of skill, more or less teams do not affect team parity as much, which I believe is more important than overall skill level and definitely plays a greater role in remedying these lopsided games you speak of.
Razgriz wrote:I would like more people to play but I also would like more people to get better too. Simply signing up but never showing any incentive to improve or be active doesn't make me want to draft you, and I wouldn't captain in a league where I'd be forced to pick up someone who falls under this category. The quality of the player pool determines everything, and he has enough for a really good season finally. I'm actually looking forward to some good games when this takes off.
I don't strongly believe that captains would be forced into making bad picks with 10 teams with the current free agency list. As you would have 6 free agents after the draft, I think if any captain subtracted their personal 6 worst players from the free agency as it stands, they would still be able to draft teams of acceptable skill levels.
Razgriz wrote:I also would say the spike in activity is due to the season, Dragon opening up the league, and the fact that scrim and priv games are so empty now a days that people are thirsty for competition.
I agree, and that's why I'm saying that we should've tried harder to be inclusive. This must definitely be considered next season, should numbers continue to increase.
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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#10

Post by r4z0r » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:46 am

Zakken wrote:
Razgriz wrote:I don't know about you but I came for a good season, and yes strong teams facing off is more interesting than seeing some lop sided games.
Reread the latter half of my post. While less teams does imply more concentrated teams in terms of skill, more or less teams do not affect team parity as much, which I believe is more important than overall skill level and definitely plays a greater role in remedying these lopsided games you speak of.
Huh? What is this message trying to convey?? From what I'm understanding your argument for the inclusion of more teams and by extent more captains is what exactly now? I don't understand why you're trying to push this idea as hard as you can considering...

1. More teams in fact does affect the overall "parity"(who uses that word) of the teams in GFA. If the number of teams was expanded to ten, then you would have exactly what Dragon said, 4 godlike teams, 3 mediocre and 3 bottom of the barrel teams simply because there aren't enough good players to spread across ten teams. This disparity in skill level between the teams would be significantly reduced if you stuck with the current 8 teams and had a higher skill density per team.

2. You have to take into consideration the bailouts that will occur over this season due to real life commitments, school, jobs, changes in schedule etc... Quite a few of the people who have signed up for GFA this season are brand new to doom and their reliability is totally uncertain. Maybe they have 2000 hours of spare time to dedicate to this, maybe they just signed up as a joke and wont have time to play. More teams means more unreliability overall within the GFA.

3. Quality over quantity, simply having more of something doesn't make it more appealing, GFA needs to appear like a high quality league for more people to join. Just having a bigger player-base doesn't equate to something being superior, take for example the whole Complex doom LCA discussion. Just because LCA has a bigger player-base than something such as Russian Overkill or Push or some other mod doesn't automatically make LCA superior.
Zakken wrote:
Razgriz wrote:I would like more people to play but I also would like more people to get better too. Simply signing up but never showing any incentive to improve or be active doesn't make me want to draft you, and I wouldn't captain in a league where I'd be forced to pick up someone who falls under this category. The quality of the player pool determines everything, and he has enough for a really good season finally. I'm actually looking forward to some good games when this takes off.
I don't strongly believe that captains would be forced into making bad picks with 10 teams with the current free agency list. As you would have 6 free agents after the draft, I think if any captain subtracted their personal 6 worst players from the free agency as it stands, they would still be able to draft teams of acceptable skill levels.
I don't think you and I are looking at the same free agency list. Comparing someone like Dranzer or Ammar to a brand new player in the competitive scene(not gonna name anyone but I'm certain you can find at least 6 people in the free agency list who you've never seen play a single game before) is frankly ridiculous. It's like pitting a baby against Bruce Lee, its not exactly a mystery on who's gonna end up winning that fight.
Zakken wrote:
Razgriz wrote:I also would say the spike in activity is due to the season, Dragon opening up the league, and the fact that scrim and priv games are so empty now a days that people are thirsty for competition.
I agree, and that's why I'm saying that we should've tried harder to be inclusive. This must definitely be considered next season, should numbers continue to increase.
If anything this season of IFL/GFA is one of the most inclusive due to the implementation of signups. If someone really wanted to be drafted, then they could easily spend more time hanging around the competitive scene, demonstrating what they have to offer in duels, participating in FNF etc... There's a multitude of ways to be involved with the GFA rather than being forced to be drafted from the bottom of the barrel simply as a filler 4th spot and not ever getting to play. This would just leave a bad taste for those who got drafted out of a need for a filler permanent-bench 4th spot and I doubt anyone in this position would consider coming back for a 2nd season if that's what they experienced their first time around.
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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#11

Post by Razgriz » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:01 am

Zakken wrote: Reread the latter half of my post. While less teams does imply more concentrated teams in terms of skill, more or less teams do not affect team parity as much, which I believe is more important than overall skill level and definitely plays a greater role in remedying these lopsided games you speak of.
Yea playerpool matters a fuck lot, I would definitely never play in a league as a captain again if my end choices had my team looking like this meme team in the WDL. Look at those 4-5 cap matches, that would never happen as often with a better player pool overall. Yea you want more people to play but there are people who come to win and play some good matches too. More teams means the skill density of the teams is less than what it could be because it directly correlates with the skillset of the playerpool, get it? The skill set in the current pool is fair for 8 but at 10 you would definitely see more stacked teams because the pool isn't on that level to support 10 teams evenly, mostly on part of the fact you have the AO's who can't be bothered to try under a lot of circumstances.

Zakken wrote:I don't strongly believe that captains would be forced into making bad picks with 10 teams with the current free agency list. As you would have 6 free agents after the draft, I think if any captain subtracted their personal 6 worst players from the free agency as it stands, they would still be able to draft teams of acceptable skill levels.
You are on hand forced to make bad picks when you are reaching around your 4th pick, because you need to fill 3 slots on your team. If your player pool isn't well skill-wise then you're fucked. That's when lop sided games happen and teams begin to suffer when 1 of the main 3 can't make a game, because you're already picking from a group of people, who you think is the best for your team, even though they all fall short of what you need to stand a decent chance. WWO got Alien who replaced Neon, who played ok but he did better as a peepee holder on the bench due to the fact he couldn't be bothered to use comms effectively, at all. See how that works? If the player pool was better/Alien tried harder, then maybe we could have afforded to bench myself or Uggi for a week or something.

Zakken wrote:I agree, and that's why I'm saying that we should've tried harder to be inclusive. This must definitely be considered next season, should numbers continue to increase.
I don't agree, there's a difference between managing the time of 24 people and 40. It's work and if Dragon believes he can do 32 people without killing himself then yeah that's power to him, he can do that. He also is in the pilot seat and controls what the league promotes at any given time. Want to be drafted? Show people that you are playing and trying to improve, want to improve and are willing to put some time into being a team player.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#12

Post by IdeIdoom » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:22 am

HTG wrote:I guess i can see both points, why we should and should not go for 10 teams. Thing is, this is our first season with 8 captains, and finding 8 captains was already a task. I think if we get the same amount of signups next season, we could possibly do 10, but this season it's a bit too sudden.
It's good to have more teams but this also means to increase the number of weeks before Semi-finals and such. Right now, it should have been increased so that the Round Robin style of competition could continue from IFL, where there were 6 teams usually so all teams got to faced each other at least once.
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Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#13

Post by Zakken » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:30 am

r4z0r wrote:1. More teams in fact does affect the overall "parity"(who uses that word) of the teams in GFA. If the number of teams was expanded to ten, then you would have exactly what Dragon said, 4 godlike teams, 3 mediocre and 3 bottom of the barrel teams simply because there aren't enough good players to spread across ten teams. This disparity in skill level between the teams would be significantly reduced if you stuck with the current 8 teams and had a higher skill density per team.
Zakken wrote:Besides, it's not player numbers that hurt team parity; captains' skill and draft knowledge do (in the auction draft, at least). You can have a 6-team season and still have one or two bad teams (and conversely, one or two really stacked teams) because their captains either aren't as good as the others, their draft went really badly, or both. There's plenty of draft data in the WDL forums to back this up.
r4z0r wrote:2. You have to take into consideration the bailouts that will occur over this season due to real life commitments, school, jobs, changes in schedule etc... Quite a few of the people who have signed up for GFA this season are brand new to doom and their reliability is totally uncertain. Maybe they have 2000 hours of spare time to dedicate to this, maybe they just signed up as a joke and wont have time to play. More teams means more unreliability overall within the GFA.
Maybe, but with 6 free agents in a 10-team format, wouldn't that be enough to cover for these oddballs? My opinion leans slightly towards yes.
r4z0r wrote:3. Quality over quantity, simply having more of something doesn't make it more appealing, GFA needs to appear like a high quality league for more people to join. Just having a bigger player-base doesn't equate to something being superior, take for example the whole Complex doom LCA discussion. Just because LCA has a bigger player-base than something such as Russian Overkill or Push or some other mod doesn't automatically make LCA superior.
That's completely wrong. If you want to make something look appealing to the average spectator (so that you're likely to draw in new players), you want to make it look high-quality, but still reasonably accessible. I've lost count of how many people have seen the entire competitive scene as this one highly elitist clique you won't belong to unless you endure several months of practise and heckling by some of those above you, and felt zero motivation to even attempt to become a part of it because our current priv system and leagues/tournaments are heavily biased towards the best players and provides very little opportunities to those of lower skill levels. Your example of Doom mods is completely irrelevant, and while I do understand (but disagree with) your argument that having more players in general would severely hurt the skill density of teams and would, therefore, making it less enjoyable for players and spectators alike (which is wrong), this mentality that strong players have where they only want to play with other strong players has done far more bad than good for the scene.

Some players need to stop being divas about who they get to play with, and spectators would hardly notice much of a difference with the lowered skill density between 8 and 10 teams. In fact, more teams would mean more games to watch, so spectators would actually become more engaged, and in return, more invested in the league. It's a win-win situation.
r4z0r wrote:If anything this season of IFL/GFA is one of the most inclusive due to the implementation of signups. If someone really wanted to be drafted, then they could easily spend more time hanging around the competitive scene, demonstrating what they have to offer in duels, participating in FNF etc... There's a multitude of ways to be involved with the GFA rather than being forced to be drafted from the bottom of the barrel simply as a filler 4th spot and not ever getting to play. This would just leave a bad taste for those who got drafted out of a need for a filler permanent-bench 4th spot and I doubt anyone in this position would consider coming back for a 2nd season if that's what they experienced their first time around.
You're saying that with less teams, at least everybody who's drafted put in the work to deserve being drafted, but you actually have it backwards. With less teams, it's actually far more likely that your well-committed rookie ends up sitting on the bench for an entire season than if there were more teams present.
Razgriz wrote:Yea playerpool matters a fuck lot, I would definitely never play in a league as a captain again if my end choices had my team looking like this meme team in the WDL. Look at those 4-5 cap matches, that would never happen as often with a better player pool overall.
The problems with that team lied with team chemistry and lack of practise. Or are you going to tell me that either KBlair, Wazzup or Godlike are actually awful players incapable of winning? Are your standards so high up that you think having Wazzup and Godlike in your team means getting "stuck" with a meme team?
Razgriz wrote:You are on hand forced to make bad picks when you are reaching around your 4th pick, because you need to fill 3 slots on your team. If your player pool isn't well skill-wise then you're fucked. That's when lop sided games happen and teams begin to suffer when 1 of the main 3 can't make a game, because you're already picking from a group of people, who you think is the best for your team, even though they all fall short of what you need to stand a decent chance. WWO got Alien who replaced Neon, who played ok but he did better as a peepee holder on the bench due to the fact he couldn't be bothered to use comms effectively, at all. See how that works? If the player pool was better/Alien tried harder, then maybe we could have afforded to bench myself or Uggi for a week or something.
You're trying to prove your case by referencing a specific situation in a previous season back when this was still an invitational league, when we had nowhere near enough to have even 8 teams. This is a different season, and we evidently have a lot more people around; these are different times, so your argument isn't nearly as applicable. In the end, you feel as though 10 teams would drive certain captains to a corner while I don't, so let's agree to disagree.
Razgriz wrote:I don't agree, there's a difference between managing the time of 24 people and 40. It's work and if Dragon believes he can do 32 people without killing himself then yeah that's power to him, he can do that.
If there are too many people for Dragon to handle on his own, he can always recruit somebody else to help him with his work. That's the least of one's worries when adding more teams to a league.
IdeIdoom wrote:It's good to have more teams but this also means to increase the number of weeks before Semi-finals and such. Right now, it should have been increased so that the Round Robin style of competition could continue from IFL, where there were 6 teams usually so all teams got to faced each other at least once.
There is no obligation to increase the length of regular season or playoffs to accomodate for more teams. WDL, for one, decided to extend playoffs so that 6 teams get to play, while keeping the regular season's length as it is -- as a result, some teams didn't get to face each other. IFL decided to go down the same path, but there is no supreme ruling to how leagues should be structured for a specific amount of teams, and you also don't want to make seasons last for too long regardless of how many people play.
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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#14

Post by Razgriz » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:10 am

Zakken wrote: The problems with that team lied with team chemistry and lack of practise. Or are you going to tell me that either KBlair, Wazzup or Godlike are actually awful players incapable of winning? Are your standards so high up that you think having Wazzup and Godlike in your team means getting "stuck" with a meme team?
I'm saying that aside from Blair, the rest of his team isn't good enough to stand a good chance. The scores on those weeks are so wild and inconsistent that it shows. And yes I would never draft Wazzup or Godlike because they are not good in my book, maybe back in 2011-12 yea but they don't come off as rock solid players anymore.
Zakken wrote: You're trying to prove your case by referencing a specific situation in a previous season back when this was still an invitational league, when we had nowhere near enough to have even 8 teams. This is a different season, and we evidently have a lot more people around; these are different times, so your argument isn't nearly as applicable. In the end, you feel as though 10 teams would drive certain captains to a corner while I don't, so let's agree to disagree.
Whether it was invitational or not, it goes to prove that a weaker player pool does affect the performance of teams. Thanks for proving me right. You are also trying to downplay the fact that there will be a big difference in team composition, because there would be a difference of 16 players since the last season if we went to 10 teams as you wanted. There will be definitely be weaker teams and stacked teams. Maybe go make a mock draft of 6, 8, and 10 teams and see how they could look, prove me right again?
Zakken wrote:If there are too many people for Dragon to handle on his own, he can always recruit somebody else to help him with his work. That's the least of one's worries when adding more teams to a league.
Yeah but the pace you wanted the league to go in would give no time to structure an efficient way to have two people handle such a jump in player count when it comes to schedules. Save it for later, or never. I don't blame Dragon if he feels comfortable being in complete control because it does suck to rely on someone else for something you can do yourself.
Zakken wrote:Some players need to stop being divas about who they get to play with, and spectators would hardly notice much of a difference with the lowered skill density between 8 and 10 teams. In fact, more teams would mean more games to watch, so spectators would actually become more engaged, and in return, more invested in the league. It's a win-win situation.
Yea seeing close matches is more important than seeing blow outs, see how quick the server clears out or doesn't even fill when one is imminent. Maybe ask Gal how it was like being on a team structured to fail, people are allowed to have fun too and completely tanking and getting blown out is not fun. People have a right to bitch about players who bring teams down.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#15

Post by Tai » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:35 am

Zakken wrote: That's completely wrong. If you want to make something look appealing to the average spectator (so that you're likely to draw in new players), you want to make it look high-quality, but still reasonably accessible. I've lost count of how many people have seen the entire competitive scene as this one highly elitist clique you won't belong to unless you endure several months of practise and heckling by some of those above you, and felt zero motivation to even attempt to become a part of it because our current priv system and leagues/tournaments are heavily biased towards the best players and provides very little opportunities to those of lower skill levels. Your example of Doom mods is completely irrelevant, and while I do understand (but disagree with) your argument that having more players in general would severely hurt the skill density of teams and would, therefore, making it less enjoyable for players and spectators alike (which is wrong), this mentality that strong players have where they only want to play with other strong players has done far more bad than good for the scene.

Some players need to stop being divas about who they get to play with, and spectators would hardly notice much of a difference with the lowered skill density between 8 and 10 teams. In fact, more teams would mean more games to watch, so spectators would actually become more engaged, and in return, more invested in the league. It's a win-win situation.
Who are these people? Where are you finding them? I'm willing to discuss specifics in private, but I could argue the biggest problem here is there's not as much pub as there have been in past years, so it's hard to pick out some random person and say "hey, he might be interested, let's get him into the fold".

In general, I do agree that newer players tends to be marginalized, but in order to change the cycle, we need a pipeline to ease them in better than they are now. Again, how does one identify a new player that would be interested? Or even, how do we better advertise to new players? You may see the WDL making it a point to put their content (such as matches) on Youtube or Twitch, something I haven't seen the GFA do, so there's a start.

I do feel bad that players look at the competitive scene and think "nope, not worth it", especially for a relatively small playerbase compared to, well, you name it as far as the games out today. Still, I've played games nowhere near as mainstream as something like Overwatch and seen it can be just as tough to "make the grade" if not harder. It takes time to be relevant in the competitive sense in most stuff, but I'm all for ways to be more welcoming to new players where possible.

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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#16

Post by Zakken » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:13 am

Razgriz wrote:I'm saying that aside from Blair, the rest of his team isn't good enough to stand a good chance. The scores on those weeks are so wild and inconsistent that it shows. And yes I would never draft Wazzup or Godlike because they are not good in my book, maybe back in 2011-12 yea but they don't come off as rock solid players anymore.
I drafted Wazzup and Tai on the winter 2015 WDL season and made it all the way to the finals, while having Tai play OFFENCE in almost every match, which is not even his main position, so excuse me if I don't feel the same way about Wazzup, at least. Godlike's always been decently good in my opinion, but I'm not as inclined to disagree with you when it comes to him.
Razgriz wrote:Whether it was invitational or not, it goes to prove that a weaker player pool does affect the performance of teams. Thanks for proving me right. You are also trying to downplay the fact that there will be a big difference in team composition, because there would be a difference of 16 players since the last season if we went to 10 teams as you wanted. There will be definitely be weaker teams and stacked teams. Maybe go make a mock draft of 6, 8, and 10 teams and see how they could look, prove me right again?
And you're saying we won't have weaker teams and stacked teams with 8 teams? I wouldn't be so sure of that... Running mock drafts sounds like a decent idea though.
Razgriz wrote:Yeah but the pace you wanted the league to go in would give no time to structure an efficient way to have two people handle such a jump in player count when it comes to schedules. Save it for later, or never. I don't blame Dragon if he feels comfortable being in complete control because it does suck to rely on someone else for something you can do yourself.
At the time I first pitched in the idea of having 10 teams, there was still a decent amount of time to make the necessary accommodations, but it's obviously too late by now. However, I must say that I still understand Dragon's view on the matter even if I don't particularly agree with it. Either way, it is still very unfortunate that so many people looking to play won't get drafted and will most likely be forgotten for the entire season, save for one or two players perhaps.
Razgriz wrote:Yea seeing close matches is more important than seeing blow outs, see how quick the server clears out or doesn't even fill when one is imminent. Maybe ask Gal how it was like being on a team structured to fail, people are allowed to have fun too and completely tanking and getting blown out is not fun. People have a right to bitch about players who bring teams down.
In Gal's case I can agree, but you complaining about Wazzup and Godlike felt uncalled for as they're at least decent in their own right and actually try to win, which single-handedly puts them above those with defeatist attitudes. I fail to see how the increase in teams would've accentuated the skill gaps among teams so much that the season would become a gigantic lopsided nightmare.
Tai wrote:Who are these people? Where are you finding them? I'm willing to discuss specifics in private, but I could argue the biggest problem here is there's not as much pub as there have been in past years, so it's hard to pick out some random person and say "hey, he might be interested, let's get him into the fold".
They are usually newer players who are members of otherwise highly competitive clans that have come and gone over the years because of the aforementioned reasons. Also, that's because priv's grown so easily accessible that pub players will more often than not be inclined to play priv instead if they have enough people, and there isn't as much of a pub scene because Zandronum's equivalent of pub nowadays consists of AOW2, Complex Doom and the like. So why play pub when most CTF players are priv players who would much rather just play priv instead, right? Pub can still work if you rally a group to populate it and stick to it though.
Tai wrote:I do feel bad that players look at the competitive scene and think "nope, not worth it", especially for a relatively small playerbase compared to, well, you name it as far as the games out today. Still, I've played games nowhere near as mainstream as something like Overwatch and seen it can be just as tough to "make the grade" if not harder. It takes time to be relevant in the competitive sense in most stuff, but I'm all for ways to be more welcoming to new players where possible.
Indeed, it's never easy (and nor should it be) to become one of the greats in competition, and that's why it's so important to advertise the scene and promote healthy sportsmanship and the wonders of competitive Doom so that players will want to try to get good.
* Determination.

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r4z0r
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Re: Spring 2017 Free Agency List

#17

Post by r4z0r » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:28 am

Zakken wrote:
Razgriz wrote:I'm saying that aside from Blair, the rest of his team isn't good enough to stand a good chance. The scores on those weeks are so wild and inconsistent that it shows. And yes I would never draft Wazzup or Godlike because they are not good in my book, maybe back in 2011-12 yea but they don't come off as rock solid players anymore.
I drafted Wazzup and Tai on the winter 2015 WDL season and made it all the way to the finals, while having Tai play OFFENCE in almost every match, which is not even his main position, so excuse me if I don't feel the same way about Wazzup, at least. Godlike's always been decently good in my opinion, but I'm not as inclined to disagree with you when it comes to him.
Razgriz wrote:Whether it was invitational or not, it goes to prove that a weaker player pool does affect the performance of teams. Thanks for proving me right. You are also trying to downplay the fact that there will be a big difference in team composition, because there would be a difference of 16 players since the last season if we went to 10 teams as you wanted. There will be definitely be weaker teams and stacked teams. Maybe go make a mock draft of 6, 8, and 10 teams and see how they could look, prove me right again?
And you're saying we won't have weaker teams and stacked teams with 8 teams? I wouldn't be so sure of that... Running mock drafts sounds like a decent idea though.
Razgriz wrote:Yeah but the pace you wanted the league to go in would give no time to structure an efficient way to have two people handle such a jump in player count when it comes to schedules. Save it for later, or never. I don't blame Dragon if he feels comfortable being in complete control because it does suck to rely on someone else for something you can do yourself.
At the time I first pitched in the idea of having 10 teams, there was still a decent amount of time to make the necessary accommodations, but it's obviously too late by now. However, I must say that I still understand Dragon's view on the matter even if I don't particularly agree with it. Either way, it is still very unfortunate that so many people looking to play won't get drafted and will most likely be forgotten for the entire season, save for one or two players perhaps.
Razgriz wrote:Yea seeing close matches is more important than seeing blow outs, see how quick the server clears out or doesn't even fill when one is imminent. Maybe ask Gal how it was like being on a team structured to fail, people are allowed to have fun too and completely tanking and getting blown out is not fun. People have a right to bitch about players who bring teams down.
In Gal's case I can agree, but you complaining about Wazzup and Godlike felt uncalled for as they're at least decent in their own right and actually try to win, which single-handedly puts them above those with defeatist attitudes. I fail to see how the increase in teams would've accentuated the skill gaps among teams so much that the season would become a gigantic lopsided nightmare.
Tai wrote:Who are these people? Where are you finding them? I'm willing to discuss specifics in private, but I could argue the biggest problem here is there's not as much pub as there have been in past years, so it's hard to pick out some random person and say "hey, he might be interested, let's get him into the fold".
They are usually newer players who are members of otherwise highly competitive clans that have come and gone over the years because of the aforementioned reasons. Also, that's because priv's grown so easily accessible that pub players will more often than not be inclined to play priv instead if they have enough people, and there isn't as much of a pub scene because Zandronum's equivalent of pub nowadays consists of AOW2, Complex Doom and the like. So why play pub when most CTF players are priv players who would much rather just play priv instead, right? Pub can still work if you rally a group to populate it and stick to it though.
Tai wrote:I do feel bad that players look at the competitive scene and think "nope, not worth it", especially for a relatively small playerbase compared to, well, you name it as far as the games out today. Still, I've played games nowhere near as mainstream as something like Overwatch and seen it can be just as tough to "make the grade" if not harder. It takes time to be relevant in the competitive sense in most stuff, but I'm all for ways to be more welcoming to new players where possible.
Indeed, it's never easy (and nor should it be) to become one of the greats in competition, and that's why it's so important to advertise the scene and promote healthy sportsmanship and the wonders of competitive Doom so that players will want to try to get good.
Why are you still debating this issue everyone has already agreed upon 8 captains and no more your arguing is doing nothing but bumping up your post count.
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Re: 10 Teams discussion

#18

Post by Combinebobnt » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:16 pm

damn razor looks like u have the shit talk already, if u get the skills too u can truly be the future of the competitive scene as all these ppl are talking about

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Re: 10 Teams discussion

#19

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:09 pm

Yes, he'll be a one man future of a waste land.

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Re: 10 Teams discussion

#20

Post by HumanBones » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:11 pm

There are a number of factors that Dragon (or anyone running a CTF league) has to consider before increasing the number of teams at any point. First and foremost you have to look at the quality of your playerbase. I'm not just talking about skill, but also reliability. If 44 people sign up, are you certain that 40 of those 44 people are reliable enough to make having 10 teams worthwhile? I had to learn the hard way, running my first season of the IDL with 12 teams, that it isn't always the case. Of course you want to include as many people as possible, but you have to draw the line somewhere or you'll end up with what has been described as meme teams.

It sounds wrong but you have to put the playerbase into tiers, ranging from elite players to benchwarmers. If you have more teams than you do elite players, chances are your league is spread out far too much and the quality of the bottom 2-4 teams is going to be atrocious. Addressing a specific example, I don't think on paper that KBlair/Wazzup/Godlike/Souler are an 0-5 team. KBlair won it all last summer and Wazzup can be on fire at times, but things like practice time and schedule can work against some teams more than others. Regardless, it's important also to pick the best captains that you can out of the pool of players because they are the ones that run the show. I've been fooled a few times by enthusiastic captains that give up or quit or otherwise ruin their teams and I'm sure Dragon took into consideration that finding 8 solid people is hard enough.

Captains don't have to be the most skilled either (a statement that always gets me in trouble with some people). Skill is important, yes, but reliability is almost equally as important. There are plenty of examples over the years of lesser skilled captains having great drafts and great seasons, and the upside of that is those top players remain available to be drafted.

Now, I agree with the reality of it being difficult for new players to break through and make themselves known and improve based on the nature of the competitive scene. It's always been that way and I don't think it's going to change. The players that put in the effort are almost always noticed. Maybe Alt_Stab isn't a name that is quite as well known around here, but here's a guy that went from being a 4th one season to a very successful captain the next. It takes time but the ones who care the most are the ones who become a part of the community. I don't believe any league is going to achieve much if they just up the number of teams for the sake of it. 8 teams is a good increase from 6, and take it from there.

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