[WIP] D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Maps, modifications, add-ons, projects, and other releases for Zandronum. Also includes announcers.
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#21 by dbthanatos » Tue May 02, 2017 4:59 am

Well, a bit of an update! :D

2.0 Trailer and Release Date

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#22 by jdagenet » Fri May 19, 2017 4:40 pm

Okay so the Shitgun and the Super Shitgun need buffs big time lmfao I know you're going for that "OP at handshake range and 0 damage anything else" type of weapon but that's not going to work in deathmatch lol especially on maps designed for Doom 2 (which is all of them). The Pistol is better than the SSG, not kidding you. Also that Lightning Gun is trash as well, does no damage. If you want a good Lightning Gun look at Quake, or better yet, look at Eon Weapons.
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#23 by Catastrophe » Fri May 19, 2017 6:38 pm

Have to disagree with the above. The weapons are more or less fine and are true to Doom 4. The only thing broken is the monster transformations and the hp they get but its the same on Doom 4 as well.

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#24 by jdagenet » Fri May 19, 2017 6:45 pm

Catastrophe wrote:The weapons are more or less fine and are true to Doom 4.

I guess that's why no one plays Doom 4 :biggrin:
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#25 by Catastrophe » Fri May 19, 2017 7:08 pm

jdagenet wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:The weapons are more or less fine and are true to Doom 4.

I guess that's why no one plays Doom 4 :biggrin:


Have you even played it?

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#26 by Doomenator » Fri May 19, 2017 7:12 pm

jdagenet wrote:Okay so the Shitgun and the Super Shitgun need buffs big time lmfao I know you're going for that "OP at handshake range and 0 damage anything else" type of weapon but that's not going to work in deathmatch lol especially on maps designed for Doom 2 (which is all of them). The Pistol is better than the SSG, not kidding you. Also that Lightning Gun is trash as well, does no damage. If you want a good Lightning Gun look at Quake, or better yet, look at Eon Weapons.
Do not forget that this is not Doom2, D4T has own balance of weapons. Perhaps it requires more polishing, but OP the SSG and SG doesn't need. LG in Quake - top weapon, we should not compare.

1st test, quite good.
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#27 by jdagenet » Fri May 19, 2017 7:17 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
jdagenet wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:The weapons are more or less fine and are true to Doom 4.

I guess that's why no one plays Doom 4 :biggrin:


Have you even played it?

Nope, I saw from the start that it wasn't going to be good, but hey at least they tried I guess...
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#28 by Catastrophe » Fri May 19, 2017 7:28 pm

jdagenet wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:
jdagenet wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:The weapons are more or less fine and are true to Doom 4.

I guess that's why no one plays Doom 4 :biggrin:


Have you even played it?

Nope, I saw from the start that it wasn't going to be good, but hey at least they tried I guess...


So in other words, you're commenting on a mod that's trying to recreate mechanics from a game you haven't even played... In favor of Eon weapons? Really?

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#29 by r4z0r » Fri May 19, 2017 7:40 pm

jdagenet wrote:Okay so the Shitgun and the Super Shitgun need buffs big time lmfao I know you're going for that "OP at handshake range and 0 damage anything else" type of weapon but that's not going to work in deathmatch lol especially on maps designed for Doom 2 (which is all of them). The Pistol is better than the SSG, not kidding you. Also that Lightning Gun is trash as well, does no damage. If you want a good Lightning Gun look at Quake, or better yet, look at Eon Weapons.


nice eonweps promotion a3 conspiracy strikes atgain???

also ssg and sg is fine they were beyond broken in original doom and most original doom maps are designed to play around this mechanic of ssg being an amazing weapon meanwhile this mod encourages arsenal diversity and not sticking to the exact same stale meta thats permiated this community ever since the introduction of the super shotgun. While this mod might not fit the flow of most maps because of the balance changes with the weapons, this is a weapons mod. The way it works with a map should have nothing to do with the actual weapons mod and everything to do with the map design itself. I cant comment on the pistol, lightning gun or anything else though thats up to the a3 higher powers (neon dm release soon?)

tl;dr ssg deserved the nerfs it got
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#30 by jdagenet » Fri May 19, 2017 7:53 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
jdagenet wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:
jdagenet wrote:I guess that's why no one plays Doom 4 :biggrin:


Have you even played it?

Nope, I saw from the start that it wasn't going to be good, but hey at least they tried I guess...


So in other words, you're commenting on a mod that's trying to recreate mechanics from a game you haven't even played... In favor of Eon weapons? Really?

If you're implying that Doom 4 is actually good then this mod has bigger issues than just bad weapons...
If not, then I'm right when saying that Doom 4 isn't good. Either way, Doom 4 isn't the issue at hand here.

The SG, SSG, and Lightning Gun are bad weapons. Plain and simple. When I'd use weapons other than those I'd get top frag count so everything else seemed fine to me. That demon powerup seemed a bit weak too, but maybe that was just the Baron? I didn't get any other so I can't say for sure.
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#31 by Catastrophe » Fri May 19, 2017 8:31 pm

jdagenet wrote:If you're implying that Doom 4 is actually good then this mod has bigger issues than just bad weapons...
If not, then I'm right when saying that Doom 4 isn't good. Either way, Doom 4 isn't the issue at hand here.

You're right, Doom 4 wasn't the point to begin with. If you thought Doom 4 is bad then whatever, it's not your cup of tea. The actual point is you're hating on a game without even trying it. Then on top of this, you're criticizing a mod that's taking mechanics from a game you've never played.

jdagenet wrote:The SG, SSG, and Lightning Gun are bad weapons. Plain and simple. When I'd use weapons other than those I'd get top frag count so everything else seemed fine to me. That demon powerup seemed a bit weak too, but maybe that was just the Baron? I didn't get any other so I can't say for sure.

I think you're too used to standard Doom 2 deathmatch. If this were a project where its goal is to enhance Doom 2's weapons, then I'd agree, the SSG/SG sucks. But that's not the goal of the wad. It's Doom 4 weapons.

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#32 by Razgriz » Fri May 19, 2017 9:13 pm

Catastrophe wrote:I think you're too used to standard Doom 2 deathmatch. If this were a project where its goal is to enhance Doom 2's weapons, then I'd agree, the SSG/SG sucks. But that's not the goal of the wad. It's Doom 4 weapons.


From what I got from this is that there is a balance issue, and it doesn't necessarily matter if it's true to D4 or not, balance should be considered if you're gearing it towards multiplayer and quality. He listed Eonweapons as an example of balancing all the weapons as much as possible, even though it's just D2 weapons, the concept is still the same. Now it would be different if he were gearing it in the direction like any of the Armas, RO, or even your Catawepz where things are too strong and are made to be that way. Then really balance isn't that big of a deal as long as it isn't too overpowered.

But it's the same people who are against balance and they're the same ones who can't balance anything themselves, and also are first to complain when something is too op.

R4z0r wrote:The way it works with a map should have nothing to do with the actual weapons mod and everything to do with the map design itself.


Classic example of what I described right here, thanks for proving me right.

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#33 by r4z0r » Fri May 19, 2017 9:22 pm

Razgriz wrote:But it's the same people who are against balance and they're the same ones who can't balance anything themselves, and also are first to complain when something is too op.

R4z0r wrote:The way it works with a map should have nothing to do with the actual weapons mod and everything to do with the map design itself.


Classic example of what I described right here, thanks for proving me right.


I didnt get what u meant by this i wasnt complaining about anything in the mod being op i was saying the ssg is an op weapon in doom i got lots of ppl in pm agreeing with me on this
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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#34 by Ru5tK1ng » Fri May 19, 2017 10:15 pm

Catastrophe wrote:So in other words, you're commenting on a mod that's trying to recreate mechanics from a game you haven't even played... In favor of Eon weapons? Really?


r4z0r wrote:nice eonweps promotion a3 conspiracy strikes atgain???


The best part is that eon's lg is taken from the one in Samara which of course is derived from the one in Quake 1. I haven't played the mod so I can't comment on how good or bad the LG is in D4T but there's nothing wrong in pointing him to Quake when it comes to making a good LG. If the gun is suffering all you have to do is change DPS or change the range. It's that easy.

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#35 by dbthanatos » Fri May 19, 2017 11:04 pm

Alright. Here's my take on this.


@jdagent: SSG and SG are not useless. They have a use, but it's a specific one. As mentioned here, a lot of Doom2 DM is SSG spam; that weapon is great at close range, pretty good at medium, and quite ok at longer range. It's no sniping weapon, but it's a catch all kind of weapon, and a lot of matches are just SSG duels. Many DM maps put SSG right at player spawns so that they have it right away. This is respectable for people that like that style. But that's not the idea in D4T.

D4T has around 15 weapons to use in deathmatch, and to just focus in one of them is something i did not want to do.

D4T's SSG can deal some OK 50-60 damage at medium range so long as you can aim. Two shots, and a regular player will die. But at really close range, it deals 160 damage; ergo, this weapon is really for close combat. Want longer range? try shotgun: not too much spread, and has a very fast grenade for secondary attack, if you connect both, player is dead. Want long range, try using precision weapons. But SSG is definitely NOT for every single case, and was designed to be useless if it's handled like a spam weapon.

Since the release of v1 I've heard this same thing that SSG sucks, hell, even my other dev said that at first. Until they understand that SSG is not to use all the time. Weapons in D4T were balanced not so much to follow the formula of Doom2016 (because Doom2016 weapon balance was made so that all weapons are kinda the same due to loadouts); instead, we brought a different balance where each weapon has a role. And hoping you can use one single weapon to do everything will get you killed fast. The key here is learning quickswitching, learning what weapon is for what situation and combine them. Did you ever try combining weapons with QS? You cant really judge the balance of the whole thing based in the first impression.

Also, LG weak? Did you notice that it deals 7 damage per every two tics? One tic is 3 damage, next tic is 4 damage. This means that in one second (35 tics) it deals 122.5 damage at the price of 17 cells approx, at a 768 range. You're the very first person that ever complains about this weapon and nothing was changed about it since v1. It's my favorite weapon, and so long as you can aim decently, you can get kills with it.

Maybe you havent considered that in D4T deathmatch there's no such thing as damage randomization and that's why it feels different: it is different. No "damage*(random(1,3))" for bullets nor "damage*(random(1,8))" for projectiles. Deathmatch damage is never randomized. The only factor is your aim and resource management. Many weapons were balanced to not be able to kill a fresh player unless X amount of shots connected.

I will not say that balance is perfect, because it's not, but you seem to be expecting the SSG to be a clone of Doom2's. D4T's deathmatch is not meant to be a "Doom 2 deathmatch with reskins of the weapons". It changes just about everything. Our weekly players have gotten to understand the weapons (of v1) and have gotten good at using them.


@Catastrophe: the demon health was complicated all along :(

At first they were very tanky; they could take a lot of punishment, but then nobody was actually using them because they couldnt kill anyone due to slow weak projectiles. We buffed the projectiles, but then the demons became indestructable :P

Then we did what we have now: very damaging demons that are kind of fragile. Glass cannons if you will. Except the baron and fatso, those two are always tanks, but they are the rarest to appear. So far, it seems players are more motivated now to get the runes to get a nice kill streak with them, even if they lose the rune after 20 seconds :P Most of their attacks are explosive, so aim to a bunch of players and profit! :D

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#36 by dbthanatos » Sat May 20, 2017 12:12 am

For if anyone wants specifics of the functionality of the weapons
Spoiler (Open)
Weapons

PISTOL. Perfectly accurate, good damage. Attack from distance until you get a better weapon
Primary: single shot, tap to fire again. 10 dmg per shot
Secondary: charges shot. Release button to fire. If you release before max charges, it defaults to regular primary damage. Full chage shot deals 40 dmg

HELLSHOT. Perfectly accurate.
Primary: Single shot, uses 4 cells, deals 30 damage. Tap to refire.
Secondary: Fires a flare-like projectile that when hitting a player, will stick to him, dealing up to 120dmg.

SHOTGUN. Good for mid range.
Primary: Shotgun attack. 10 dmg per pellet, 6 pellets total
Secondary: Explosive shot. Very fast arching grenade. Damage on direct hit is 99.

REAPER. Mid range, spam and predict.
Primary: Fires a burst of 6 fast projectiles, each one dealing 20 damage in a tiny explosion radius.
Secondary: readies alt fire. One single shot, very very fast, deals 60 dmg on direct hit. Explosion-only deals 30dmg.

SSG. Only for close range, huge spread
Primary: unloads both barrels. At non melee range, it fires 12 pellets, 10 dmg each. If you fire at very close range, it has extra 5 pellets for a maxium total damage of 170.
Secondary: unloads one barrel. Same principle of range.

HEAVY ASSAULT RIFLE. For medium/long range. Fairly accurate.
Primary: Each bullet deals 10dmg.
Secondary: readies micro missiles. Each missile deals a max of 35dmg on direct hit. Missiles have limited range.

REPEATER. Perfectly accurate. Only good for long distances.
Primary: Quick burst of 3 bullets. Each one dealing 13dmg.
Secondary: single piercing bullet, dealing 20dmg.

CHAINGUN. For close/medium range. Has big spread.
Primary: Each bullet deals 9dmg, but after the short windup, it fires very fast.
Secondary: readies explosive bullets. Each shot eats 4 bullet ammo, and deals 20dmg. Mows down players fast, but eats all your bullets

GRENADE LAUNCHER. For whenever you can. Great for clusters of players
Primary: fires a single grenade. Deals 120dmg on direct hit. Max explosion-only damage is 100
Secondary: Fires a short range toxic gas grenade. Damage is variable depending on for how long player stayed inside the cloud. Can easly kill a static player. When affected by cloud, your HUD vision will be obscured even if you exit the cloud. Beware, you can blind yourself with it too.

ROCKET LAUNCHER. Clusters of players, or great prediction shots.
Primary: Fires a slow-ish rocket. Direct hit deals 125 dmg. Max explosion-only damage is 90
Secondary: Detonates a previously fired rocket in mid air. Max explosion damage is 70.

PLASMA RIFLE. The spammiest of them all.
Primary: each plasma ball deals 10 damage, but moves pretty fast.
Secondary: plasma "pool". Damage is variable depending on for how long player stays in the pool. While in the pool, player movement is slowed. Combine with primary for guaranteed kill.

LIGHTNING GUN. Max range is 768 (medium)
Primary: Very fast pixel perfect accuracy. Uses around 17cells per second, with a max DPS of 122.5. Aim well, kill anyone.
Secondary: Upon hitting a player or surfance, the "tip of the beam" will create small weak explosions. Great for when you dont have good aim, but very low damage.

STATIC RIFLE. Mid-long range. Move to charge.
Primary: Non-charged damage is 40. Max charge deals 105dmg. And the damage in between varies based on your charge. This pierces enemies; line them up and fire.
Secondary: zooms in a little bit. That's that.

VORTEX RIFLE. For long range only.
Primary: Fires a non piercing, perfectly accurate shot. Deals only 20 dmg. Not recommended at all.
Secondary: Zooms in with the scope, and it charges the shot. Min damage is 20. Max damage is 150. While you are aiming with the scope, you have a laser sight that other people can see. Therefore they can spot where you're sniping from. You also move slower while sniping.





Power weapons: They dont spawn right away in a match. When they do spawn, you'll hear a sound announcing it throughout the entire level. All power weapon have 3 shots. Alt fire for any of them activates "wallhack" view, which, in pulses, shows you the player position through walls. A player that gets killed while having a power weapon (whether selected or not) will drop said power weapon.

GAUSS CANNON. Fires a massive rail-like shot that guarantees a kill on direct hit, and it has a damaging aura around the "rail", allowing you to kill even if the shot wanst pixel perfect. Great for crowd control

BFG. Big projectile that deals damage to anything near while it travels. Explosion is massive, has bfg spray

MOBILE TURRET. One press of the trigger will spend 1 ammo, and fire an unstoppable 3 second burst of bullets with good accuracy.


Quick Tip: Players in demon form are weak against the Power weapons.

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#37 by Doomenator » Sat May 20, 2017 12:46 am

The balance of the weapon some reminds me of Quake III Arena. Who played that will understand. In my opinion a very sensible decision.

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#38 by Marcaek » Sat May 20, 2017 1:20 am

good DM sg and ssg seem to be ok from what was played in fnf, havent seen lightning gun use yet for some reason

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#39 by Combinebobnt » Sat May 20, 2017 1:39 am

hey do the skill levels affect damage those numbers arent what we see in game

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[WIP] Re: D4T: v2.0 Trailer & Release Date

Post#40 by dbthanatos » Sat May 20, 2017 3:37 am

The damage is affected indeed by skill. If you use any of the non "normal", it will. Normal skill have a damage factor of 1. Hard skills damage factor of 1.7 iirc, and easy skill something like 0.5. So for Deathmatch is recommended to use skill 0, 1, or 2, which correspond to the 3 normal skills. I haven't tried with skill 3-6, but I'd guess it'd be much like Instagib :P

Skill 7 and above are unplayable in dm, nobody ever dies


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